Branko D

The funny bit is that aero rims help the pros in a road race in sprints and breakaways but riding in the peloton the wheel aerodynamics do very little. If you do most of your riding without a peloton dragging you along, you are getting a benefit the whole time.
​​​​​​
Helps when I get dropped from the first group in gran fondos and have to take turns at the front of some ad hoc group of stragglers 😒

​​​​​Anyway, I just don't see much of a downside to running a mid depth - let's say 45mm - CF wheel with 25mm tubeless tires. No issues in wind and plenty comfortable at reasonable pressures (that said, infrastructure is not a dirty word around here, and I keep at a reasonable cyclist weight).

asgelle

Josh Poertner has spoken often about how much energy aero wheels save sitting in a peloton and how significant that can be at the end of a race.

Kimmo 

You don't have to be into TTs; you just need to be into solo riding and maximising efficiency. My 1080g (330g rims) 49mm tubs make my bike go like an absolute weapon.

Modern bulging profile, iirc 24-25mm, 23/25 Corsas. Light & aero FTW.

Kimmo 

Every time I jump on my bike, I'm stoked I spent over $2k on wheels and tyres.

bruce19

At this point I don't understand why recreational cyclists bother with tubular.

woodcraft

They don't, and they also don't bother with which tire is fastest- they're out there pushing 30mm watt-hogs.

bruce19

I actually have friends (ex-racers) who still ride tubs. But, generally I agree with your point. One of them just bought a Rose bike and I think I have him convinced that he needs to go tubeless.

Kimmo 

I'm a recreational cyclist, and I rock tubulars because I love riding the best bike I can build.

kraftwerk 

If I had a sponsor / personal mechanic / unlimited tire-budget I would, for sure, ride tubulars. I used to ride them and repair them (huge PITA!) exclusively in the late 80's.. back when every single beverage was sold in a glass bottle or can no plastic, flats were even more common then. Nothing feels quite like a nice tubular set-up. I borrowed a buddy's bike a few years ago and it reminded me..

TPL

Why are wheels that are NOT tubular so wide ?

JohnDThompson 

Wired-on tires rely on the sidewall to hold the tire in place. A wide wired-on tire on a narrow rim puts more stress on the sidewall than the same tire on a wider rim. Tubular wheels to not rely on the sidewalls for tire retention and are not subject to this concern.

dmanders

Lots of good and bad info in this thread. Back in the day I used to ride those skinny tubs. Resisted clinchers for the longest of time. Now that I am no longer competitive I ride 28mm (who would have thunk) tubeless. There are still very good uses for tubs, in addition to nostalgia, but they are getting fewer.

Shaym

Hi Sir, I would need your assistance please.

My dad has two vintage bikes that I wish to use but the tires are worn. They both have been using 700 X 20 Tubular however the best I can currently find in Singapore is 700 X 23. Could you tell me how can I measure or find out if the rims can allow 23 inch Tubular tyres?

thanks in advance for your time.

Psimet2001 

Your rims will fit 700x23 tires.

JohnDThompson 

Tubular rims can accommodate any width tire, since the rim sidewalls have no role in retaining the tire.

Atlas Shrugged

I wonder if on Agricultural forums people are still arguing Oxen vs Tractor?

daviddavieboy

And I rode HED Stinger 60s in CX and absolutely thrashed them in gravel for 6-7 years over gawd knows what and I was around 190 - 200lb then - so. yeah there is that as well. ANYONE can have bad days, same as when one person has great luck with certain tires and another will not.

PeteHski

This analysis from Swiss Side sums it up well, comparing the effects of aero vs lightweight wheels on climb, TT and Criterium courses. The conclusions are very clear and yet often disputed on BF.

Extract from link:-

In terms of importance there is a clear ranking:

Aerodynamics. (First order effect).
Weight. (Second order effect).
Rotating Weight. (Third order).

https://www.swissside.com/blogs/news/aero-vs-weight

asgelle

Interesting. That's very similar to an analysis Kraig Willett posted nearly 30 years ago with the same conclusions (as far as I can tell, it's no longer available). Though his analysis wasn't quite as sophisticated, he also had ride data confirming his results.

PeteHski

You can extrapolate that out to at least 30 mm tubeless with very little downside. They are even more comfortable on rougher roads and the lower pressure makes the sealant more effective. Over the last few years I've gone from 25 to 28 and currently running 30 mm wide tyres without any significant loss in speed.

PeteHski

The underlying physics is pretty simple. Swiss Side just crunched the numbers over various course profiles. When this was being argued to death in a previous thread I made my own simple spreadsheet to calculate the power required to accelerate a wheel. Even in a full bore sprint acceleration, it's only a handful of Watts difference between aero and lightweight wheels. This shows clearly in Swiss Side's course analysis too. Yet rider perception is often way out of proportion to the reality of the stopwatch.

Edit: I guess this is the Kraig Willett analysis you mentioned:-

https://capovelo.com/ounce-off-wheel...eight-crucial/

Same physics, same conclusions. It is what it is, regardless of individual perceptions.

Wildwood

For folks who pinch flat and/or crack rims - over small bumps 'at appropriate tire pressure', by definition = need to re-evaluate 'at appropriate tire pressure'.

eduskator

Because they s*ck. Kidding, you're probably checking used / old stuff. They make wider ones.

Dave Mayer

Finally: a post that gets the core of the issue. Tubulars do not have to be as wide - useful air volume is the key. Tubulars, for the same nominal size have more useful air volume, as with clinchers, the space between the rim walls does nothing to protect the rim or cushion the ride. But the most important advantage of tubulars is that they are almost impossible to pinch flat, due to the smoother rim profile. Clinchers in contrast, have the 2 pointy hooks pointing downwards that are fragile, heavy at the worst possible place on a bike, and cause pinch flats.

So you can run tubulars at almost any pressure and not have the issues of pinch flats, rim damage. Or at very high pressures, the rim walls splitting apart and everything exploding.

So the real issue here is that clinchers HAVE to be wide with high volumes because they are susceptible to pinch flats, and the 2 hooks are susceptible to impact damage. Of course, wide rims and tires are heavy, have high rolling resistance and high aero drag.

Tubulars for the win all round.

Atlas Shrugged

Hate to break it to you, but tubulars have already lost a while ago.