Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Upside Down Pricing

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Upside Down Pricing

Old 02-14-22, 08:01 PM
  #1  
helmet4000
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Essex County, NJ
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 14 Posts
Upside Down Pricing

In a sign of the times. The Pro's Closet is selling a Giant TCR Advanced 2 PC for $2,999.
https://www.theproscloset.com/produc...SAAEgJ24_D_BwE

However, if available locally, I can buy the same bike online new and pick it up at my local Giant dealer for $2,450
helmet4000 is offline  
Old 02-14-22, 08:02 PM
  #2  
helmet4000
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Essex County, NJ
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 14 Posts
dummy i am ....the used one has zipp 303s
helmet4000 is offline  
Old 02-14-22, 10:20 PM
  #3  
alcjphil
Senior Member
 
alcjphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,183
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1469 Post(s)
Liked 1,120 Times in 670 Posts
The amount of scuffing on the crank indicates quite a bit of wear. A new bike has a warranty. A used bike doesn't. even with the better wheels that bike isn't worth the price
alcjphil is offline  
Likes For alcjphil:
Old 02-15-22, 08:28 AM
  #4  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 14,659

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8672 Post(s)
Liked 5,276 Times in 3,047 Posts
Wow that is a lot of scuffing for a 2021 model. Ridden really hard?...or maybe some pedal spacers are needed?
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 09:23 AM
  #5  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,709

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times in 1,249 Posts
I can't believe what pro closet asks for some of their stuff.

I emailed them to point out to them that a used Giant Trance frame they were selling for ~$3200 was available new (in stock and with a warranty) for only $50 more. They thanked me for bringing this to their attention and lowered the price $50.

I don't see the frame listed anymore, so some fool must have bought it.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 09:35 AM
  #6  
msu2001la
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,083
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 982 Post(s)
Liked 974 Times in 557 Posts
FWIW, those Zipp wheels are significantly older than the bike.

Also, Gatorskins on Zipps.
msu2001la is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 09:36 AM
  #7  
TMonk
Not actually Tmonk
 
TMonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 12,248

Bikes: road, track, mtb

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked 1,431 Times in 782 Posts
I just bought a brand new Limar airspeed helmet for 89 bucks from TPC, so I there are some deals to be found, just maybe not on bikes/frames?

Good wheel deals too
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
TMonk is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 09:59 AM
  #8  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
Also, Gatorskins
That's a triathlete's calling card.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Likes For Psimet2001:
Old 02-15-22, 10:13 AM
  #9  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I can't believe what pro closet asks for some of their stuff.

I emailed them to point out to them that a used Giant Trance frame they were selling for ~$3200 was available new (in stock and with a warranty) for only $50 more. They thanked me for bringing this to their attention and lowered the price $50.

I don't see the frame listed anymore, so some fool must have bought it.
I hesitate to call someone a fool for buying a bike they want at a price they were OK with.

Pros closet does just fine. They've grown from nearly nothing and have built a large company out of it. They have a ton of employees (odds are too many of them) and their job is to flip used bikes at the best prices they can. They'd be doing a bad job if they ended up with tons of bikes that never sold or if they sold everything so low they didn't make any money.

This is the part of enthusiast cycling that will never seemingly die - A bike is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Not what a by-standing enthusiast thinks it's worth.

Prime example - I had 2 used bikes at the swap meet on Sunday. Well done road bike to flat-bar road bike conversions. We did the conversion work but the man we did them for died of a massive heart attack and his girlfriend gave them to us in hopes of moving them along to new owners. I felt I under priced them at $600 to move them along. I had people coming up instantly and offering $350 and $400 then talking smack about how I didn't know anything. "Anyone who buys them for that is a fool" kind of stuff. I waited until the doors opened and the actual public came in. Had a few want them but be iffy on the price so they wanted to think about it. Then sold them without hesitation to another buyer. They all came back later looking for them again. All were upset they didn't get them.

A bike is worth what someone will pay for it. If you're not buying it and the seller didn't ask you then your opinion isn't needed and may not even be valid.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 10:27 AM
  #10  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,709

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times in 1,249 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I hesitate to call someone a fool for buying a bike they want at a price they were OK with.

Pros closet does just fine. They've grown from nearly nothing and have built a large company out of it. They have a ton of employees (odds are too many of them) and their job is to flip used bikes at the best prices they can. They'd be doing a bad job if they ended up with tons of bikes that never sold or if they sold everything so low they didn't make any money.

This is the part of enthusiast cycling that will never seemingly die - A bike is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Not what a by-standing enthusiast thinks it's worth.

Prime example - I had 2 used bikes at the swap meet on Sunday. Well done road bike to flat-bar road bike conversions. We did the conversion work but the man we did them for died of a massive heart attack and his girlfriend gave them to us in hopes of moving them along to new owners. I felt I under priced them at $600 to move them along. I had people coming up instantly and offering $350 and $400 then talking smack about how I didn't know anything. "Anyone who buys them for that is a fool" kind of stuff. I waited until the doors opened and the actual public came in. Had a few want them but be iffy on the price so they wanted to think about it. Then sold them without hesitation to another buyer. They all came back later looking for them again. All were upset they didn't get them.

A bike is worth what someone will pay for it. If you're not buying it and the seller didn't ask you then your opinion isn't needed and may not even be valid.
If someone is willing to pay $3,150 for something used when the exact same thing is currently available for $3,250 new with a warranty (that is just 3% more), they are a fool in my book.

Your example is not comparable. Someone would have absolutely been a fool to pay $600 for your used bike if the exact same thing was currently available new for $620.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 10:30 AM
  #11  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
If someone is willing to pay $3,150 for something used when the exact same thing is currently available for $3,250 new with a warranty (that is just 3% more), they are a fool in my book.

Your example is not comparable. Someone would have absolutely been a fool to pay $600 for your used bike if the exact same thing was currently available new for $620.
You can buy a used Ford Transit with at least 30k miles on it for that same as new plus a $10-$20k dealer premium. By your math the whole world is full of fools or there's something you're missing about the realities of the transaction.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 10:33 AM
  #12  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,709

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times in 1,249 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
You can buy a used Ford Transit with at least 30k miles on it for that same as new plus a $10-$20k dealer premium. By your math the whole world is full of fools or there's something you're missing about the realities of the transaction.
Who buys a used car with over 30K for only 3% under the price of a new one when a new one is actually available?

Even in today's crazy market, nobody is going to do that. And these are cars that might actually still have a warranty.

Last edited by Kapusta; 02-15-22 at 10:38 AM.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 10:56 AM
  #13  
WorldIRC
Canadian eh?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,128

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Expert

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Who buys a used car with over 30K for only 3% under the price of a new one when a new one is actually available?

Even in today's crazy market, nobody is going to do that. And these are cars that might actually still have a warranty.
Lots of folks in Canada doing that, no other choice.
WorldIRC is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 11:03 AM
  #14  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,709

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times in 1,249 Posts
Originally Posted by WorldIRC View Post
Lots of folks in Canada doing that, no other choice.
Not the same thing at all, because in the case I am describing there IS a choice.

How hard is this for some people to understand?

I am talking about someone buying something used when the brand new bike frame (or car) is IN STOCK and AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE for only 3% more.
Kapusta is offline  
Likes For Kapusta:
Old 02-15-22, 11:08 AM
  #15  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 12,916
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3441 Post(s)
Liked 2,193 Times in 1,299 Posts
I look at used bike prices that I think are way overpriced and the think about the last time I bought a frame and then all of what I paid for a mix of used and new part to hang on it and realize that I paid at least as much if not more than that and slowly shuffle out of the room with my mouth shut.
himespau is offline  
Likes For himespau:
Old 02-15-22, 11:22 AM
  #16  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Not the same thing at all, because in the case I am describing there IS a choice.

How hard is this for some people to understand?

I am talking about someone buying something used when the brand new bike frame (or car) is IN STOCK and AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE for only 3% more.
As I said before - it's because there's something about the transaction you're missing. The bike in question sold, yes? Then it represented a value that the buyer was willing to pay for. That's how buying and selling works.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Likes For Psimet2001:
Old 02-15-22, 11:23 AM
  #17  
Troul 
:D
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 5,774

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 1,981 Times in 1,321 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Not the same thing at all, because in the case I am describing there IS a choice.

How hard is this for some people to understand?

I am talking about someone buying something used when the brand new bike frame (or car) is IN STOCK and AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE for only 3% more.
the only way i can (maybe) see it possible is that the buyer not knowing the item is in stock, even after looking using there resources.

I can provide a recent example:
When I was looking for a New Trek, the search function that Trek has, sucks (putting it lightly) . The results did not return anything that matched my criteria. However, after some creative techniques with the search feature, I was able to get some hits. With those hits, I was able to communicate with long distant Trek retailers to point me in the direction of closer places meeting my requirements.
It took more effort than I would expect the general consumer to put into it.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 11:26 AM
  #18  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I look at used bike prices that I think are way overpriced and the think about the last time I bought a frame and then all of what I paid for a mix of used and new part to hang on it and realize that I paid at least as much if not more than that and slowly shuffle out of the room with my mouth shut.
I am in the industry and I have been saying for years how I couldn't even afford a new bike if I wanted. We even talked about it 2 shows back on the podcast and I had a great thread out on Twitter that a lot of industry people have been hitting me up on behind the scenes.

BUT... my current road bike I got the frame through an industry friend. Let's just say it was a deal I couldn't refuse. In the end I spent about what a new one with a slightly lower spec would have cost and it took me much longer to get all the parts and build it....but it always seems cheaper when it's $100-$200 at a time.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Likes For Psimet2001:
Old 02-15-22, 11:41 AM
  #19  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 3,596
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1708 Post(s)
Liked 1,841 Times in 1,172 Posts
Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
The amount of scuffing on the crank indicates quite a bit of wear. A new bike has a warranty. A used bike doesn't. even with the better wheels that bike isn't worth the price
Looks like it was ridden by a duck!
PeteHski is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 11:52 AM
  #20  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 14,659

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8672 Post(s)
Liked 5,276 Times in 3,047 Posts
With regard to pricing of anything- yes yes yes, the concept that an item is worth whatever it can be sold for is correct. At the same time, 999 people can view that item as being overpriced even if 1 person buys it.
The two concepts can both exist. It was worth the cost to the 1 person and it was overpriced to the 999 other people. Neither group is wrong...though one group's opinion is clearly in the majority.

This happens all the time for wastefully crafted boutique stuff from Paul, Silca, etc- a few find value in it being MUSA or inherently limited stock and many others view it as just being overly expensive compared to similar options.
There is no actual right or wrong- both views can apply at the same time.
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 02-15-22, 11:58 AM
  #21  
blacknbluebikes 
Senior Member
 
blacknbluebikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 987

Bikes: two blacks, a blue and a white.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked 536 Times in 269 Posts
There are a lot of situations where "not all buyers have all information." Doesn't make them fools, necessarily. Sometimes the cost of acquiring "all the information" is a barrier. "Over analysis leads to paralysis" comes to mind here. Maybe I could have gotten those shares of Google a little cheaper in 2009. Silly fool.
blacknbluebikes is offline  
Likes For blacknbluebikes:
Old 02-15-22, 12:00 PM
  #22  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,709

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times in 1,249 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
As I said before - it's because there's something about the transaction you're missing. The bike in question sold, yes? Then it represented a value that the buyer was willing to pay for. That's how buying and selling works.
Just because a buyer is willing to pay a given price does not mean he/she is not a fool for doing so.

By your logic, nobody has ever made a foolish purchasing decision.

Heck, I have made purchasing decisions that I later realized were foolish. I doubt anyone can say otherwise.

Last edited by Kapusta; 02-15-22 at 12:06 PM.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 12:03 PM
  #23  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
With regard to pricing of anything- yes yes yes, the concept that an item is worth whatever it can be sold for is correct. At the same time, 999 people can view that item as being overpriced even if 1 person buys it.
The two concepts can both exist. It was worth the cost to the 1 person and it was overpriced to the 999 other people. Neither group is wrong...though one group's opinion is clearly in the majority.

This happens all the time for wastefully crafted boutique stuff from Paul, Silca, etc- a few find value in it being MUSA or inherently limited stock and many others view it as just being overly expensive compared to similar options.
There is no actual right or wrong- both views can apply at the same time.
I'll take issue with that. Sure in a 1 out of 1,000 it would seem like that one person just missed something...but who cares.

On the boutique thing - Paul and Silca, etc. are selling. They have customers. They still exist. Their pricing is just fine for them and their customers.

People who stand on the side and lob grenades about how something is overpriced crap with no value are missing the point at best and at worst are actually just materializing some sort of weird internal jealously or other feeling of deficiency. It's not just in cycling but with everything. So many people are so concerned with how others spend their money.

I've been just as guilty. I know I used to come out (at least 15 years ago) here and complain about how expensive Chris King stuff was and how over priced it was for what little value I believed it represented. "Now" (for over a decade) I'm a dealer. I certainly feel there are things they do that have higher value than others. There are things I think they simply add a sort of boutique tax on to as well. Even if there are plenty of us who feel the same way about it just doesn't really matter unless someone looking to buy has asked for our opinion. Sitting here after the fact and making fun of someone who decided to spend the money because we, using our current system of value, don't see the benefit is really the pastime of the have nots with chips on our shoulders.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 02-15-22, 12:09 PM
  #24  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,580

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1305 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 533 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Just because a buyer is willing to pay a given price does not mean he/she is not a fool for doing so.
I'll directly disagree. It always has to do with value perception. I can think of many times I have watched extremely wealthy individuals make buying decisions based on their value with other aspects of the transaction. Price is meaningless without context and your determination that someone is a fool simply based on price displays your lack of understanding of that.

Like I keep repeating - there's something about the transaction you're missing.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Likes For Psimet2001:
Old 02-15-22, 12:16 PM
  #25  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,709

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times in 1,249 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I'll directly disagree. It always has to do with value perception. I can think of many times I have watched extremely wealthy individuals make buying decisions based on their value with other aspects of the transaction. Price is meaningless without context and your determination that someone is a fool simply based on price displays your lack of understanding of that.

Like I keep repeating - there's something about the transaction you're missing.
OK, sure. There are no foolish purchasing decisions.
Kapusta is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.