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Do you balance (not true) your wheels?

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Do you balance (not true) your wheels?

Old 02-23-22, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Interesting point. I'm starting to think I've been incredibly lucky with bicycle wheels/tyres for all these years. I've never given ANY of this stuff a second thought (actually not even a first thought) and had zero issues with wheel "roundness", balancing etc. Maybe it's only a problem if you actually think about it?
Not really lucky, just completely normal. As I said, its been more of a past problem with tubulars making the whole system out of round by small amounts but even that hasn't been a problem for years. Any real high end wheel is going to show up perfectly round and even cheaper ones will be barely enough to be noticeable. Wheels are made a lot better on the average bike then they were 25 years ago or earlier.
As to balance, never been an issue that I've ever seen and I've ridden my own wheels at 45-55mph down hills and mountains hundreds of times racing against others riding stock and custom wheels and the wheels being out of balance wasn't an issue.
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Old 02-24-22, 12:42 AM
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Some part of me wants to willfully add length to all your rosaries saying it matters more for lighter wheel sets because of reasons I just made up

Dynabeads! I hadn't thought about that in a while. Years ago I poured a whole package of Airsoft pellets into a motorcycle tire following the advice of someone on ADVRider, thinking to try it but not wanting to spend the money on the actual product. I have no idea if it accomplished anything but it sure sounded funny pushing the bike out of the garage. Sold the bike almost ten years ago... I wonder what the next guy who changed the tire thought of me.
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Old 02-24-22, 02:57 PM
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I have an old set of Ksyrium Elites, which came counter-weighted, and it's effective in making them spin at constant velocity on the work stand (provided the valve length is right ). I thought it was very cool when I got them.
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Old 02-24-22, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I have an old set of Ksyrium Elites, which came counter-weighted
...from the factory?!?! i.e., were all new Ksyrium Elites counter-weighted?

'cuz I've got a 16-year-old pair of Ksyrium Elites on my Synapse and I've never noticed anything inside or outside the rims that could be a weight. Is the weight somehow integrated into whatever joins the rim at its seam, opposite the valve hole?
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Old 02-24-22, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by delbiker1
Never had a need to do so. As for the magnet, I always put it on the opposite of the stem. Does it make a difference? Probably not. Just a habit.
I put 8 magnets on my wheel to keep it balanced. I averaged 160 mph last weekend.
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Old 02-24-22, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by yaw
What is the relevance of this test? One cap and one nut weigh 1.5g together. Adding that to a balanced wheel makes it still far more balanced than 99% of stock wheels out there.

When I hammer down my local climbs, I prefer my wheels to be balanced to remove one source of oscillation I can easily control. This does not mean that this is compulsory to do so in order to be safe, or that it can be specifically felt.

the point is if you’re balancing a wheel, it’s a pretty small aomount of weight. Look at your car wheels/tires. The combination of the wheel and tire on a car is ,20, pounds or more. The little lead balancing weights are a tiny fraction of that.

The nut and cap on your bike wheel are at least as large a percentage of the total wheel weight as the balancing weights on your car wheel.

if it actually made a difference, the cap and nut should be perceptible and they aren’t
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Old 02-24-22, 07:38 PM
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Perhaps an experiment would be to add weight to the heavy portion of the wheel until the imbalance would become noticeable at a reasonably safe speed. I'd wager that the weight required to be noticed at road conditions would be far greater than that to correct the imbalance on the work stand.
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Old 02-24-22, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
the point is if you’re balancing a wheel, it’s a pretty small aomount of weight. Look at your car wheels/tires. The combination of the wheel and tire on a car is ,20, pounds or more. The little lead balancing weights are a tiny fraction of that.

The nut and cap on your bike wheel are at least as large a percentage of the total wheel weight as the balancing weights on your car wheel.

if it actually made a difference, the cap and nut should be perceptible and they aren’t
The weight I needed to balance my wheels was almost 13g per wheel or almost 10 times the amount of the cap and nut weight.

I know from my weight finding exercise that the 1.5g of the cap and nut would indeed be enough to get the wheel out of balance enough for it to fall to the heavy spot, however, obviously not as drastically as before.

But I never made an argument that one could feel the difference even between 13g unbalanced and perfectly balanced - or that there is any significant amount of energy to be saved in the scheme of things - so the cap and nut obviously will not register. It is more about principle and the assumption that there could indeed be a reduction in system imbalance on high speed descents with no discernible downsides to something that is easy to modify.

Seeing the difference of a bouncy bike vs a smooth running wheel on the stand is the most significant impact one will actually see and feel. People spend so much time and money optimising their bikes to the highest degree in so many areas but a $3 and 15minute wheel balancing is too far out even though the small amount of weight added does not matter due to it's rotational energy being conserved and it's arguably one of the most important parts of the bike that can only benefit and not be harmed by a bit of optimisation?
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Old 02-25-22, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross
...from the factory?!?! i.e., were all new Ksyrium Elites counter-weighted?

'cuz I've got a 16-year-old pair of Ksyrium Elites on my Synapse and I've never noticed anything inside or outside the rims that could be a weight. Is the weight somehow integrated into whatever joins the rim at its seam, opposite the valve hole?
The bump with the decal.


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Old 02-25-22, 10:14 AM
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I thought a speed wobble was more like a tank slapper on a motorcycle. More like something upset the bike ( something in the road, etc.. ) then the bike
starts to resonate back and forth.
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Old 02-25-22, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
The bump with the decal.
Interesting. My Ksyrium Elites are older than yours; while they still have a small silver decal over the seam, they do not have the scalloped inner rim between spokes (i.e., no "bump"). Not sure if that makes a difference.
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Old 02-25-22, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by yaw
The weight I needed to balance my wheels was almost 13g per wheel or almost 10 times the amount of the cap and nut weight.

I know from my weight finding exercise that the 1.5g of the cap and nut would indeed be enough to get the wheel out of balance enough for it to fall to the heavy spot, however, obviously not as drastically as before.

But I never made an argument that one could feel the difference even between 13g unbalanced and perfectly balanced - or that there is any significant amount of energy to be saved in the scheme of things - so the cap and nut obviously will not register. It is more about principle and the assumption that there could indeed be a reduction in system imbalance on high speed descents with no discernible downsides to something that is easy to modify.

Seeing the difference of a bouncy bike vs a smooth running wheel on the stand is the most significant impact one will actually see and feel. People spend so much time and money optimising their bikes to the highest degree in so many areas but a $3 and 15minute wheel balancing is too far out even though the small amount of weight added does not matter due to it's rotational energy being conserved and it's arguably one of the most important parts of the bike that can only benefit and not be harmed by a bit of optimisation?

Show me one pro tour mechanic that balances his or her rider’s wheels. You’re obsessing over something that just doesn’t matter.
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Old 02-25-22, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Show me one pro tour mechanic that balances his or her rider’s wheels. You’re obsessing over something that just doesn’t matter.
I don't follow the pro tour so looking for that mechanic sounds like it would take me much longer than balancing my wheels.
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Old 02-25-22, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Interesting. My Ksyrium Elites are older than yours; while they still have a small silver decal over the seam, they do not have the scalloped inner rim between spokes (i.e., no "bump"). Not sure if that makes a difference.
Ah, just so. Mine are 2014ish. Nice, indestructible, wheels, but relegated sadly to the trainer bike these days.
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Old 02-26-22, 02:32 PM
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Those mavics - that's the rim seam. It's bumped out there because that's where the join is made. The decals cover the joint because it isn't as pretty as the rest of the extrusion. There's lots of methods for joining but many times it involves a sleeve that is added to help reinforce the joint and help keep the joint aligned during pinning or welding.
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Old 02-26-22, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Those mavics - that's the rim seam. It's bumped out there because that's where the join is made. The decals cover the joint because it isn't as pretty as the rest of the extrusion. There's lots of methods for joining but many times it involves a sleeve that is added to help reinforce the joint and help keep the joint aligned during pinning or welding.
I only got that idea because the literature that came with them said they were counterbalanced. I wasn’t smart enough to think of it myself.
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Old 02-27-22, 08:54 AM
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That video with the aussie;;;;;;;;

This guy has serious OCD issues LOL . I imagine that wheel that is shaking when just spinning won't have that with the weight of the bike and rider on it. I still can't believe this is a thing. there is no way pro teams are doing this.
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Old 02-27-22, 10:19 AM
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Apparently, Fulcrum has been been incorporating this in their wheelsets for a while. They either use 2 oversized spokes opposite the side of the rim joint, or they add extra weight on that opposite side. I have 2013 Fulcrum Racing 5's and they have 2 silver spokes straddling the valve hole, opposite the rim joint, with the rest of the spokes aero and black.

Fulcrum Dynamic Balance

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Old 02-28-22, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sdmc530
That video with the aussie;;;;;;;;

This guy has serious OCD issues LOL . I imagine that wheel that is shaking when just spinning won't have that with the weight of the bike and rider on it. I still can't believe this is a thing. there is no way pro teams are doing this.
Ahh come on you know you want to do it!
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Old 03-01-22, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sdmc530
I still can't believe this is a thing.
yup - because it's not.

Still...it's on my list to come up with some sort of justification for it, etc. I spent a semester in college studying a field that I can not remember the proper name for. It was roughly "machine reliability". During that course we studied the obvious reliability and preventive maintenance calculations and theories. We also used an extremely expensive, at the time, accelerometer to take vibrational readings off operating machinery to detect imbalances, bearing issues, etc. Enough to know anything we even remotely attempt with a bike is pretty stupid but... "marginal gains" amirite?

During that course we got heavy into the the mechanics of balancing. Static, dynamic, multi-plane, etc. I then went and visited my girlfriend at the time (wife now) company her family owned. The made every flywheel that went on every engine that Caterpillar assembled in North America. As a part of the heavily automated line that was set up to do high volume on-highway flywheels for semi-trucks they had automatic balancing machines. Being in the middle of the theory involved I asked them 3 or 4 questions about the type of balancing required, etc. The response was, "What I know is I put it in the machine and it spits it out with a green light and I can ship it to CAT and get my money."

I ended up working for them eventually and was there when the economy collapsed in '08. Leaving there was what started PSIMET as a company.

All this means that I get really bored reading about bicycle wheel imbalances. ...but like I said I will put it on my list, dig out my old books and get back into the theory and will come up with a product and method that will end up being all over the marginal gains people's lexicon.
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Old 03-02-22, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
yup - because it's not.

Still...it's on my list to come up with some sort of justification for it, etc. I spent a semester in college studying a field that I can not remember the proper name for. It was roughly "machine reliability". During that course we studied the obvious reliability and preventive maintenance calculations and theories. We also used an extremely expensive, at the time, accelerometer to take vibrational readings off operating machinery to detect imbalances, bearing issues, etc. Enough to know anything we even remotely attempt with a bike is pretty stupid but... "marginal gains" amirite?

During that course we got heavy into the the mechanics of balancing. Static, dynamic, multi-plane, etc. I then went and visited my girlfriend at the time (wife now) company her family owned. The made every flywheel that went on every engine that Caterpillar assembled in North America. As a part of the heavily automated line that was set up to do high volume on-highway flywheels for semi-trucks they had automatic balancing machines. Being in the middle of the theory involved I asked them 3 or 4 questions about the type of balancing required, etc. The response was, "What I know is I put it in the machine and it spits it out with a green light and I can ship it to CAT and get my money."

I ended up working for them eventually and was there when the economy collapsed in '08. Leaving there was what started PSIMET as a company.

All this means that I get really bored reading about bicycle wheel imbalances. ...but like I said I will put it on my list, dig out my old books and get back into the theory and will come up with a product and method that will end up being all over the marginal gains people's lexicon.
r.e. -- 1st bold -- good for you.

r.e. -- 2nd bold -- could always squeeze this through the valve core >>

https://www.hofmann-powerweight.com/...lancing-powder
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