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Tubeless road experiences

Old 04-08-22, 03:25 AM
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Tubeless road experiences

I am resurrecting this dead horse…I have been riding Campy Bora tubular wheels for three years with Veloflex Vlaanderen 28 tires. For me at 175 lbs 98 rear and 95 front is the sweet spot. I have a 2020 Super Six which is a very fun responsive bike but the responsiveness comes with stiffness. I have thought about tubeless road wheels to ( theoretically ) ride lower pressure to take some harshness out of the ride without affecting rolling resistance.
Any experiences similar to mine would be appreciated.
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Old 04-08-22, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by waters60
I am resurrecting this dead horse…I have been riding Campy Bora tubular wheels for three years with Veloflex Vlaanderen 28 tires. For me at 175 lbs 98 rear and 95 front is the sweet spot. I have a 2020 Super Six which is a very fun responsive bike but the responsiveness comes with stiffness. I have thought about tubeless road wheels to ( theoretically ) ride lower pressure to take some harshness out of the ride without affecting rolling resistance.
Any experiences similar to mine would be appreciated.
I’ve never run tubulars, but on a wide tubeless wheel (23 inner) I’m running 28s at 62f 65r at roughly the same weight as you. It’s not any slower than when I ran higher pressures.
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Old 04-08-22, 05:40 AM
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If you're primarily after a more supple ride and lower pressures, the first thing I'd do is lower your pressure - you're running a little high for 28s and your weight, IMO. Start there, then reassess.

As far tubeless, I think that it's a great solution if you get a fair number of flats. If I didn't need the benefit of flat protection, though, I don't think that I'd take on the extra maintenance just to lower pressure a handful of PSI.
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Old 04-08-22, 06:59 AM
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You're definitely high- just like I used to be. In fact, I was a bit higher at times. I am also 175 lbs. On regular tubed tires that measure 28 and rims with internal width of 19, I run 75F and 85R but I also sit more upright. I am still high so I was trying 75/80 which is smoother. Since I run tubeless front-only now, I have gone to 70/78. I'll be going tubeless in June when Zipp 303 comes in and will likely run 70/75 on true-to-size 28s. That 70-80 range seems to be just as fast and much smoother. Since my frame is limited to 28 max tire size, I may not go much lower. If I could run 30-32, I'd get into the 60s. That will be the next bike.
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Old 04-08-22, 07:15 AM
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I have experimented with tire pressure quite a bit. The pressures I quoted were the results of my experimentation. Low 90’s results in a decidedly more sluggish ride. I go as low as possible before sluggish sets in. This is what interests me in the tubeless route.
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Old 04-08-22, 07:58 AM
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After a certain point and depending on road surfaces, thy will be more sluggish. However, I'm faster at 80 than I was at 90-95 on most of my paths/roads. I have a power meter and combine that with HR, I can determine my speed/effort on segments. With my tire size, rim, and road surfaces, I bet I'd be slower at 60-65 but not sure by how much. I have to try diff experiments on non-windy days.
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Old 04-08-22, 08:46 AM
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If you find tubulars to be too stiff, you’re definitely running to high of pressure. One advantage of tubulars is that you can run lower pressures without pinch flatting.

. Having ridden tubulars for years, and road tubeless for the last two years I can say with confidence that tubulars are still the most comfortable riding tires available.

Tubeless tires are arguably easier to deal with and less prone to flat, and can be more comfortable at the right pressure than clinchers, but they are not going to ride better than tubulars
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Old 04-08-22, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by waters60
I have experimented with tire pressure quite a bit. The pressures I quoted were the results of my experimentation. Low 90’s results in a decidedly more sluggish ride. I go as low as possible before sluggish sets in. This is what interests me in the tubeless route.
What you describe as sluggish, may not actually be slower.

For years people road tires that by today’s standards were way overinflated. A rock hard tire feels fast and responsive as it bounces over tiny imperfections. But that bouncing adds to rolling resistance and is actually slower.
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Old 04-08-22, 08:52 AM
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Old 04-08-22, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
What you describe as sluggish, may not actually be slower.

For years people road tires that by today’s standards were way overinflated. A rock hard tire feels fast and responsive as it bounces over tiny imperfections. But that bouncing adds to rolling resistance and is actually slower.
Along these lines I recently bought new tires on my commuter that were tested to be faster than my standard tire. My first day riding I came home annoyed that the darn tires felt slower! I then noticed that my average speed was about a mph faster. How it feels isn't necessarily that accurate.
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Old 04-08-22, 10:03 AM
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I think we (or some of us) were used to that bouncy fast feel. That did feel fast.
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Old 04-08-22, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by waters60
I have experimented with tire pressure quite a bit. The pressures I quoted were the results of my experimentation. Low 90’s results in a decidedly more sluggish ride. I go as low as possible before sluggish sets in. This is what interests me in the tubeless route.
If you're just talking about perception, a) mistake b) what makes you think that you'll find it any more satisfying to run tubeless at lower pressures?
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Old 04-08-22, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by waters60
I am resurrecting this dead horse…I have been riding Campy Bora tubular wheels for three years with Veloflex Vlaanderen 28 tires. For me at 175 lbs 98 rear and 95 front is the sweet spot. I have a 2020 Super Six which is a very fun responsive bike but the responsiveness comes with stiffness. I have thought about tubeless road wheels to ( theoretically ) ride lower pressure to take some harshness out of the ride without affecting rolling resistance.
Any experiences similar to mine would be appreciated.
You'll feel more comfy with TL tires, for sure. I am the same weight as you and I run 28mm tires at 65PSI. I could even go lower.
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Old 04-09-22, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by waters60
I am resurrecting this dead horse…I have been riding Campy Bora tubular wheels for three years with Veloflex Vlaanderen 28 tires. For me at 175 lbs 98 rear and 95 front is the sweet spot. I have a 2020 Super Six which is a very fun responsive bike but the responsiveness comes with stiffness. I have thought about tubeless road wheels to ( theoretically ) ride lower pressure to take some harshness out of the ride without affecting rolling resistance.
Any experiences similar to mine would be appreciated.
Some people love tubeless, some people hate tubeless, and a lot of people fall somewhere in the middle. You probably have to give them a try and decide if they're for you.
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Old 04-09-22, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Tubeless tires are arguably easier to deal with and less prone to flat,
Debatable. Guy on my ride this morning running tubeless road tires double flatted going over something this morning. Waiting for him to fiddle with his bacon bits or whatnot took freaking forever. I kept thinking "put some tubes in and let's be on our way."
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Old 04-09-22, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Debatable. Guy on my ride this morning running tubeless road tires double flatted going over something this morning. Waiting for him to fiddle with his bacon bits or whatnot took freaking forever. I kept thinking "put some tubes in and let's be on our way."
What about the times that he didn't flat, and you didn't notice, because it worked seamlessly? That's the problem with second-hand tubeless failure observation - by nature, you only note the failures and it very neatly feeds in to observation bias.
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Old 04-09-22, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
What about the times that he didn't flat, and you didn't notice, because it worked seamlessly? That's the problem with second-hand tubeless failure observation - by nature, you only note the failures and it very neatly feeds in to observation bias.
Cute logic, but if I can't use it in my favor, neither can you prove that the fraction of flats avoided is more beneficial than the aggravation when they do occur.

I do not keep statistics on the number of people on my rides running tubeless and the relative frequency of flats, but the frequency of tubeless flats is not negligible.. And once the tubelss guy gets a flat, it's an ever loving pain to deal with it.

No thanks.
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Old 04-10-22, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Cute logic, but if I can't use it in my favor, neither can you prove that the fraction of flats avoided is more beneficial than the aggravation when they do occur.
Oh, I know; I never proposed that. You can only look at relative frequency, which is why it's a trade-off that doesn't lend itself to casual, secondhand observation. Mine is way, way down from my tube days.
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Old 04-10-22, 11:58 AM
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I went from one flat per month on average to one per year. Same kind and amount of riding. I don't miss flats.
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Old 04-11-22, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Oh, I know; I never proposed that. You can only look at relative frequency, which is why it's a trade-off that doesn't lend itself to casual, secondhand observation. Mine is way, way down from my tube days.

For that argument to work, you need to ride tyres with the exact same puncture protection or it might be just that limiting the amounts of flats, not the sealant. I moved form cheap training tyres with normal tubes to better protected tyres and light tubes and haven't had a single flat since. By your logic I might as well attribute not flatting to light tubes ;-) Not claiming sealant doesn't work at all, but lots of direct evidence it doesn't work very well and is (can be) a real faff to deal with when it doesn't. - Having to wait for roadies that insist on riding paper thin race day tyres every single training and flatting as a result, is just infuriating. Imo, worse than not bringing a spare tube, lazily relying on others. TL or Tubes, flats will happen if you do that.
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Old 04-11-22, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
For that argument to work, you need to ride tyres with the exact same puncture protection or ...
Well it's a good thing that I, and many others, have done that.
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Old 04-11-22, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Well it's a good thing that I, and many others, have done that.
I haven’t had a flat on tubeless road tires in 3 years. In that time I have had several punctures- none even required me to add air.
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Old 04-11-22, 07:17 AM
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Yep. I got a rear tire cut that wouldn’t seal above 20-25#. It was 12 miles to home and I rode it fine. I’m >200#.
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Old 04-11-22, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Trsnrtr
Yep. I got a rear tire cut that wouldn’t seal above 20-25#. It was 12 miles to home and I rode it fine. I’m >200#.
Is this a positive story? Or are you saying if you ran tubes, you would have put one in and run at your normal pressure til you got home? What did you do with the tire after you got home (plug or bacon strip)?
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Old 04-11-22, 10:31 AM
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My Domane came set up tubeless from the Trek store. 0 flats . My other bikes I would get 2-3 flats a year on the MUP and the tow path. Not world ending but still a flat to fix every few months. If and when I flat on my tubeless set up I will slap a tube in there to get it home and do whatever else after that. I carry a tube not bacon strips or plugs etc. Just seems like it would be faster and easier.

Love the tubeless set up BTW for the better ride. The flat protection is just a (big) perk.
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