chaadster

Any idea what those design changes were and which models were affected? I ask because I have Herse Switchback Hill standards running tubeless fine, but also blew some Herse Bon Jon extralights off Spinergy GX rims while trying to seat them. And yeah, it was a bell-ringer, just like in the movies with that high pitched tone slowly fading down from hearing only that, to my wife’s muffled, concerned questioning if I was alright, back to normal hearing!

The Bon Jon EL and been leaking down alot, often with sealant leaking theough the sidewalls. I’d used a ton of their recco’d SealSmart sealant, 'em sit, and every other trick without luck. The one thing was that the beads had never snapped in place audibly, so in a final effort, I did pump them up past the PSI limit a bit, thinking to make sure the beads snapped in. That’s when it went boom with stunning volume.

Herse did send me a new pair of Bon Jon’s previous to the blow off because of the inability to seal up and sidewall leaking, so I ditched tubeless efforts and installed the new ones with Aerothan tubes, which honestly ride very nearly as sweetly as tubeless and remove all the drama, hassle and mess.

GhostRider62

They looked a little different and the size was a little smaller, I do not know whether they made changes or not. Pure speculation.

I had one that blew off. I also had one that had a defective casing, it was clearly wavy right out of the package. Compass told me I did not know how to mount a tire even though they did not have any evidence. Even when I assured them the tire was mounted properly (mounted and unmounted many times tubeless and with tubes), they would not take the tire back or even care enough to inspect it (at my cost). So, I am shocked that you got a replacement. I am not shocked that someone had one come off a hookless rim. They are probably fine at low pressure on hooked rims. Most people do not have an accurate pressure gage, this could have been the problem with the Plaintiff. I know mine is good.

GhostRider62

You also have to check for stretch on Hearse tires. They get sloppy but they are super easy to remove from the rim, so that is nice.

79pmooney

I pulled this at 25 mph. Tire jammed in the seatstays after I rode a good ways on the rim. Riding the rim is like riding on ice. I needed to make a gentle, slightly off camber left turn with a curb beside me so I was using my ice skills. Light grip on the handlebars. It was working until the tire came off entirely. That light grip wasn't enough to keep me from getting tossed hard. Broken collarbone, an acre or two of road rash and broken ribs. (The ribs were never examined because I learned long ago, if you speak up about them it costs several hundred dollars out of pocket, at least 4 chest X-rays and all you get is "there's not much we can do, They heal on their own. It'll just hurt for a while.")

I'm collecting tubular rims and tires to go back to the system where well glued tires never come off and high speed flats aren't a big deal (at least if you're not cornering at the time).

Edit: Mine was not a tubeless tire but an old and stretched clincher. Rim was a Velocity Aero. Never paid attention to hooked or no and all my Velocitys are currently mounted so I won't go out and look but I'm betting they're hookless. Blew a too easy to mount Challenge bead off another Velocity later; low speed and the tire stayed on. But a tire that can do the same brand new if the rim detail isn't honored and the seller knows this and stays quiet? Not OK in my book. (I've had nightmares of my same crashing happening at 45 mph; a speed easily done in the hills close by that I love. I had plans to use those Challenges at Cycle Oregon. After that blowout, they came off and I rode my far less fun Corsas for peace of mind.

Racing Dan

I get that sentiment, but why doesn't anyone consider gluing a clincher to the rim. One side should be plenty.

Polaris OBark

In my experience, sealant pretty much does that.

Polaris OBark

I've got some of their 42mm tires running tubeless on my wife's bike, and it is time to replace one. I bought some Vittoria tire inserts about 6 months ago, with the idea of putting them in her tires both to aid in keeping the tire in place (after a puncture that didn't seal), and as a run-flat if she needs it to get home.

I haven't tried them yet, but would these be of any use helping to prevent tires blowing off?

genejockey 

I agree if you're the one buying a wheelset for $1K, you'll probably acquaint yourself with what works with them. But I can foresee problems down the road, when the bike and wheels are sold to somebody else who's less savvy, maybe somebody who's not acquainted with the subtleties of tubed/tubeless and hooked/hookless. Spending big money on a bike is no guarantee the owner knows anything. I stopped to help a woman the other day. She had a brand spanking new CF Bianchi, with Ultegra kit, so probably a $3-4000 bike, but she not only didn't know HOW to shift gears, she didn't know how the gears worked. Like, AT ALL. I was literally telling her "R for right, R for rear" and "Bigger in back = easier. Bigger in front = harder".

WhyFi

We can only speculate about down the road. Down the road, I would expect that the vast majority of tubeless tires will adhere to ETRTO TSS standards, at least in 28mm and up. We've already seen Conti, who was roundly criticized for the fit of their first tubeless effort, introduce the S TR which now is compliant and, by all reports, much easier to install/remove. In addition, Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear, etc - all of their recent offerings are compatible. Schwalble's new tires are compliant, though they may have some legacy stuff floating out there for a while, etc. I'm hoping that Vittoria revamps their Corsas, soon, too.

Polaris OBark

What is the problem with the Vittoria Corsas?

Bald Paul

I had originally posted a really good reply, but thought it would get me banned.

Troul 

If those stitches costed me my career: out of work too many days - physically unable to perform my job - expensive reconstruction that I could never afford... to bring me back to looking as I was, if my job depended on it

It may not need to be a limb go missing, or to cause an organ to go south in order for seeking legal help. If the financial impact of the accident (that is not my fault) threatens my well established lifestyle that I could no longer sustain, I'll need to recoup that some other way.

Carbonfiberboy 

On the reality side, some lawsuits are about recovery and some about punishment. Wealthy people can be really into punishment. When my wife was run over and almost killed by a truck, we couldn't get a PI attorney to take the case because we weren't wealthy - they'd have to take it on a percentage basis and after all, she wasn't killed, only suffered a few months' pain and the loss of 1/4 of one lung. Not worth it. As you say, it's a long, tough and adversarial process. They wanted to know that damages would be at least $5M.

WhyFi

Although EVNE approved them for use on some of their wheels, Vittoria says that they don't conform to the ETRTO TSS (hookless) standard. They've been around for 5 or 6 years, and in that time, internal widths have increased and hookless rims have become less niche - I would assume that they're due for a refresh sooner rather than later.

Sy Reene

Oh, ok. Thought this thread was about tires being run tubeless, not with tubes.

mstateglfr 

So currently...
- less than a majority of tires conform to ETRTO SS standards.
- Conti was roundly criticized for their poor product and they had to change it. This is for one of the most popular enthusiast road tires currently sold.
- A popular Vittoria model is approved for some ENVE wheels, but not all. And Vittoria says they can't go on hookless.

...but road tubeless isnt a mess.

Polaris OBark

I had one blow off a hooked rim with a tube in it. I just assumed it was user error, but maybe not.

Much more importantly, my kid is riding these tubeless with Bontrager carbon rims. I was already worried. He's got 23mm with stupidly high pressure.

jaxgtr

Yep, when I got clipped by a city bus, we discovered the driver was driving on a suspended license for a DUI and it was known by the city mass transit manager he should not be driving, but it was an school age friend, so , go forward and be a menace on the road. I did not suffer any broken bones and any real bodily damage except for some soft tissue bruising, general pain and a broken helmet. I sued due to the driver not even stopping, and having to be chased down by a few cyclist and a good Samaritan in a car that was behind us that witnessed it. She called 911 and was giving the bus number and such and which way it was heading. I wanted them to fire this guy, but also to cover the cost of a new bike, my medical expenses and to get the city to acknowledge they had an issue in their driver fleet. We found out through discovery that there were 4 other drivers without active licenses and a couple that were not licensed to drive a bus for mass transit. On the other hand, when the guy in front of me on a group ride errantly hit the brakes and skidding to a stop when we were going 25 mph, I was damaged, ending up having 5 surgeries and 2 yrs of PT to fix me. I recognized it for what it was, an accident, there was no malice involved, just bad luck. Thankfully, no one else hit the ground. Everyone in the group stopped and helped, the other rider was very remorseful, almost overly helpful, LOL. The city bus driver was not, he actually told a pre-trial judge I rode into the traffic lane, which was bs as he cut right across us. I am sure the city atty advised him to say this, but the buses have camera's, so .... they paid up pretty quick to make this go away and payment came with a non disclosure agreement. The group ride incident actually cost me a boatload out of pocket, but never once thought about suing, as I have pretty good insurance, I knew it was not a purposeful thing, but the city bus was mainly to get the driver off the road and that was my only way to make that happen.

WhyFi

Yeah, it's actually pretty simple in practice.

A handful of years ago, there was more fit variation, mostly because some wheel and tire manufacturers were concerned about the fit being too loose, so they independently went with CYA approaches - wheels slightly larger than spec, tires slightly smaller than spec - and the result was that some combinations that were awfully tight. But that was a handful of years ago, and things have improved quite a bit, since - this fact has not gone unnoticed by forum members that are long-time tubeless users. At this point, if you want hooked tubeless wheels, cool - just be aware that there may be a few older tires out there that may be tight, like the GP5kTL.

And yeah, less than a majority of tires conform to the ETRTO TSS spec - this shouldn't be a surprise, though, seeing as the spec was announced only a couple years back and tire models typically aren't revamped on that kind of a timeframe. Look at the performance tires released since, though: Pro One Evo Addix, Michelin Power Road, Pirelli P-Zero, Conti GP-5kS TR, Goodyear Eagle F1, etc - all conforming. And really, this spec is only a concern for those that want hookless wheels. If you want the latest and greatest hookless wheels, your selection is limited to the ever expanding list of the latest and greatest tires.

That's really it - I think it's simple. If one doesn't think it's simple, it's easily avoided and there's no need to post stuff with the sole purpose of antagonizing those that think otherwise.

tomato coupe

"Mess" seems to be a four letter word to some people, both literally and figuratively.

tomato coupe

Worthwhile Nerd Alert podcast (Mar 22, 2022):

https://cyclingtips.com/2022/03/nerd...ure-not-alone/

About 9:35 into the podcast, from Josh Poertner:

About 31:45 in, from James Huang:

There's that four letter word ...

Racing Dan

JP in the above podcast, mentions an other aspect to the ETRTO standard I wasn't aware of. It used to be the safety margin was 150% of what ever is printed on the tyre, for instance 100psi > 150psi. Leaving room for an inaccurate gauge, additional seating pressure, etc - With hookless its 72psi + 10%. Thats only 80psi (!). Exceed that, even momentarily, and you may blow off the tyre.

Edit: Not true, according to various manufacturers even lower values, in the 50-55psi range, may apply, see #103

BFisher

My understanding has always been that it was a bad idea to exceed 70-80 psi on any hookless rim. Talking older tubed clinchers. Also, wire bead only on those.

Seattle Forrest

If you use hookless rims you could be stuck by lightning and eastern by cannibals! Scary!!

tomato coupe

That would certainly lead to a lawsuit.