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Rene Herse sued over tubeless tire blowoff on hookless rims

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Rene Herse sued over tubeless tire blowoff on hookless rims

Old 04-27-22, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by smashndash
latex tubes are a non-starter for most people IMO. I've considered them for a while, but modern rims/tires are just too tight for me to fit them without levers (yes, yes I know that with the right "technique" and gorilla strength, you don't need levers). If you use levers, there's a decent chance you're gonna slice the tube.
While latex tubes are softer than butyl, I'm not convinced that they're dramatically more vulnerable to being smashed with a lever than butyl. The trouble is, if you're employing a technique that causes the lever to smash the tube against the rim well, it's not hard to create enough pressure to damage any inner tube. I feel like the solution isn't to switch to butyl, it's to not smash the tube against the rim well. If you insist on tire levers, the way to do this is to anticipate where the tip of the lever is, and pull the lever out from below the bead before it bottoms out in the rim well. If this is a struggle, consider tire levers with a thin profile and a short wide hook, like the Schwalbe ones: if you hook them on the rim edge as you lever the tire bead, there's just not much lever diving in to stab things.

Or that it's gonna get stuck under the bead.
Latex tubes are more prone to damage from being caught under the bead, but it's a serious installation failure with potentially bad consequences regardless of what sort of tubes you're using. You should always put a little air in the tube so that it holds its shape during installation (and holds itself upwards toward the tire center and away from the bead), and always check along the bead of a tire after it's seated and before inflation to make sure there's no inner tube poking out from below.

Last edited by HTupolev; 04-27-22 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 04-27-22, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by smashndash
latex tubes are a non-starter for most people IMO.
Me included. Tubes that leak 15% pressure/day would be a hassle. The increased fragility is another impediment. On fatter tires, I have tubeless, but I am not convinced it is worth the hassle. I average fewer than 1 flat per year with butyl tubes, I can pump them up once every month without significant consequence, and compared to all the other things that slow me down, butyl tubes are far down the list. I have 38mm Barlow Pass (the OP tires) on my main ride, and currently ride them tubed. I was thinking of making them tubeless before I read all of this, and I even bought the valves (Peaty's), but my motivation to do this is low, even with HED Belgium + hooked rims.
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Old 04-27-22, 10:52 AM
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I have latex tubes on my Barlow Pass tires, the rolling resistance is very significantly lower than when I had butyl tubes in them although I do need to add air every other day when riding that bike whereas my Conti 5000 TR S tubeless tires need air every single day. When I used Schwalbe, I could go almost a week without adding air. In reality, I always check tire pressure before a ride and bending over to the compressor is about as trivial as learning how to mount a tube properly.
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Old 04-27-22, 02:31 PM
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TPU tubes are the answer when debating between tubeless and latex.
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Old 04-27-22, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
TPU tubes are the answer when debating between tubeless and latex.
I accidentally bought a tubeless-ready hooked rim to replace a worn one. I didn't realize what a PITA it was going to be to run tubes in it because of the shelf or I probably would have sent it back. I'm running Conti 5K on it and they have a heckuva time popping up onto that shelf. I tried latex because that's what I usually run now, but they had a tendency to get under the bead and then pinch themselves during the getting-the-bead-up-onto-the-shelf process. So I run butyl, no problem.

Except that changing a flat on that rim is another PITA because getting the bead down off the shelf and into the rim well is quite difficult. It's almost enough to make be go tubeless on that one rim on that one bike. You think TPU would work better than latex in that mounting process? Or just give up and go tubeless? That's be more novel-to-me technology to have to learn the ins and outs of. On group rides, I see tubeless do repair themselves and just need a pump-up, OTOH they spray sealant all over the bike and rider in the process and seem to get more almost-flats than tubed bikes get real flats. Plus the horror stories, both seen and related, when the tubeless tire really fails.

On topic (sort of), I'd never run a hookless rim. Back in the 60s that's all there were and good riddance.
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Old 04-27-22, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
You think TPU would work better than latex in that mounting process?
I do, yes, because the TPU is much more tear resistant and slippery than latex. Being less grabby, itíll both resist getting hung up on the tire bead, and resist snagging by tire levers. Schwalbe, for example, claim their Aerothan TPU tube can withstand more than 4x the puncture pressure of latex, which I think speaks to the durability factor, and they also claim itís more snake bite resistant than latex. In my own experience, Aerothan holds its shape much better than latex, both inflated and deflated, so itís easier to position and manage installation for that reason too, but yet rolling resistance is vanishingly close to latex, so thereís no performance hit, only increased ease of use, greater durability and puncture resistance, better pressure holding, lighter weight, and reduced likelihood of catastrophic air loss if punctured.

As to whether you should go tubeless, that depends on your level of risk aversion, willingness to gear up and possibly face challenges setting up and maintaining tubeless, and of course, which equipment you want to run. The way I see it, Aerothan offers many of the benefits of tubeless over butyl or latex tubed setups, but without virtually any of the hassles or issues of tubeless. When tubeless works, itís greató I also run tubeless on four bikesó but I use Aerothan on a bike which was giving me headaches because of the equipment choice when trying to run tubeless. The peace of mind tubeless offers, vis a vis punctures, is unrivaled and the systems greatest asset, IMO, but the whole point of this long thread is that realizing the benefits of tubeless can often be outweighed by the frustration of poorly matched tire, rim, and other components (e.g. tape, valves, sealant, pumps, etc.). I also think tubeless is a royal pain if you want to change tires for any reason, be it seasonal, event specific, curiosity or whatever, while Aerothan is as easy as butyl tubes to live with.
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Old 04-28-22, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I accidentally bought a tubeless-ready hooked rim to replace a worn one..
That's progress
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Old 04-28-22, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
That's progress
I'm on the fence about that. Bike tires aren't car tires. Several riders in the group I run went tubeless, had disasters, went back to tubes. There are also riders who went tubeless who haven't had disasters. Maybe that's haven't had a disaster yet. Disc brakes went through a period like that, too. So I wait for maturity. "You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs." IMO hooked rims are a mature technology. Carbon rims are now a mature technology.
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Old 05-01-22, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I'm on the fence about that. Bike tires aren't car tires. Several riders in the group I run went tubeless, had disasters, went back to tubes. There are also riders who went tubeless who haven't had disasters. Maybe that's haven't had a disaster yet. Disc brakes went through a period like that, too. So I wait for maturity. "You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs." IMO hooked rims are a mature technology. Carbon rims are now a mature technology.
My reference was more to the point that buyers are having an increasingly difficult time even opting for an easier-mounting non TL rim. "Progress" is to make everything TLR, even if you're not going to run TL.
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Old 05-01-22, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I'm on the fence about that. Bike tires aren't car tires. Several riders in the group I run went tubeless, had disasters, went back to tubes. There are also riders who went tubeless who haven't had disasters. Maybe that's haven't had a disaster yet. Disc brakes went through a period like that, too. So I wait for maturity. "You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs." IMO hooked rims are a mature technology. Carbon rims are now a mature technology.
I agree. TABR tubeless was an unmitigated disaster for me. And, it seemed I would flat more often. So, I switched back to tubes. I am hoping the tech is better now, I recently switched back. Fingers crossed. The GP5000 TR S tires are not faster than my latex tubed GP5000 but it would take many replicates to say for sure they are a little slower but I think they are a little slower, maybe if I removed the 45ml of sealant or cut it in half.
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Old 05-01-22, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
My reference was more to the point that buyers are having an increasingly difficult time even opting for an easier-mounting non TL rim. "Progress" is to make everything TLR, even if you're not going to run TL.
I see. Makes sense - the industrialists want to sell us whatever is most profitable for them, the fewer options, the more profit. OTOH, we get it down to 1 tire, 1 rim, no tube, that should be less expensive for the consumer. Progress, quite so. Very clever - I want to try TL because the rim I wanted is a PITA with tubes. Push marketing. With hookless, I suppose they can switch over to making all the new most desirable tires so that they don't work on hooked rims thus forcing us onto more profitable rims, TL of course, and we have to buy new rims, all the better.
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Old 05-07-22, 08:24 PM
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I just received a pair of Barlow Pass 38mm tires and am setting them up tubeless on my hooked HED Belgium+ wheels. (I've been using these same tires, but tubed, for years.) I followed their suggestion and seated the tires with a tube and after a couple of hours, opened up one side, pulled the tube out, put my Peaty's valve in, re-mounted the bead, and inflated. I used my canister, but I forgot to take out the valve core. It worked perfectly the first time, both front and back. I still haven't put in any sealant and they've stayed inflated for several hours.

Now I have to decide between Panaracer sealant and Orange Endurance.
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Old 05-07-22, 09:02 PM
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I've been using my wheels with tubes for a while and went back to my tubeless ones today. Same loop on each wheelset. Different wheels, tires, everything; tubeless is just one of many things contributing to the better ride, but my god I love this!

What a wonderful time to be a road cyclist!
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Old 05-07-22, 10:06 PM
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Maybe I should ride them without sealant and live on the (hooked) edge.

I could start a new trend: tubeless commando.
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Old 05-07-22, 10:33 PM
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The sealant will come in handy if you find anything sharp though.
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Old 05-08-22, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I agree. TABR tubeless was an unmitigated disaster for me. And, it seemed I would flat more often. So, I switched back to tubes. I am hoping the tech is better now, I recently switched back. Fingers crossed. The GP5000 TR S tires are not faster than my latex tubed GP5000 but it would take many replicates to say for sure they are a little slower but I think they are a little slower, maybe if I removed the 45ml of sealant or cut it in half.
45 is a lot for a road tire
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Old 05-08-22, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Also, being a defense lawyer, I may not be very sympathetic to plaintiffs, but who files a law suit over what essentially appears to be some road rash?

Any tire can blow out and lead to a fall, for any number of reasons. Itís a risk inherent in cycling. When the adverse consequence is some road rash and a pulled muscle, put on some tagaderm, and suck it up.
also frankly Iíd be embarrassed to admit that I crashed from a tire blowout
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Old 05-08-22, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
45 is a lot for a road tire
Well, I had 25-30 ml and they leaked like sieves. The brain trust on BF told me to put more sealant in. Josh at Silca uses 60 ml on his road bike. How much do you recommend in 25 mm tires?
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Old 05-08-22, 06:11 AM
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I use 2 oz., so 55-60 ml
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Old 05-08-22, 10:08 AM
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I just put in about 60ml of Panaracer sealant in each tire (38mm Barlows).

I found that my Leur lock on the syringe (or the syringe itself) very effectively filtered out a large amount of the particulates (walnut shells) when I filled the front tire. For the pack, I just used a conical nozzle and plastic tubing. I am wondering if I should add about 30 ml more to the front to try to re-introduce some of those larger fragments. (The idea that they help clog large holes seems dubious at best.)
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Old 05-08-22, 11:23 AM
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I use 60ml (2 oz.) in road tires - Specialized Roubaix 2bliss in a 32mm size.
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Old 05-08-22, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
also frankly Iíd be embarrassed to admit that I crashed
Lol we know better.
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Old 05-09-22, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Well, I had 25-30 ml and they leaked like sieves. The brain trust on BF told me to put more sealant in. Josh at Silca uses 60 ml on his road bike. How much do you recommend in 25 mm tires?
hmm, maybe Iím not using enough but Iím using about 30 in my road tires
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Old 05-13-22, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
hmm, maybe Iím not using enough but Iím using about 30 in my road tires
It depends on the tire. If you have supple Rene Herse tires with porous side walls, you need a lot more, at least initially.
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