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Rene Herse sued over tubeless tire blowoff on hookless rims

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Rene Herse sued over tubeless tire blowoff on hookless rims

Old 04-08-22, 07:54 AM
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Rene Herse sued over tubeless tire blowoff on hookless rims

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...9#.YlA8oMjMKUk

RH has changed their guidance at least a couple times in the last 4 years, right? At least thats how it seems.
Tubeless for road is still a mess, despite what a few on here claim. It just is. Between higher pressures, rims that are cheaper to make being pushed as better, and sizing of both rims and tires being less than ideal...it is a mess. There is simply no other honest way to assess the situation from 30,000 feet.

Maybe nothing comes of this? Or maybe more uniformed tolerances are pushed more quickly?

It says Little had researched the Compass tire model on the brandís website and concluded it was an appropriate fit for his rims. He said nothing on the company's website or the tireís packaging suggested the tire was inappropriate for use with hookless rims. The complaint alleges that the company was aware of other consumer complaints about the tire model blowing off hookless rims.
The suit alleges that after the crash Little sent the tire to Rene Herse for inspection and that the company later told him they had lost the damaged tire despite promises to return it.
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Old 04-08-22, 08:33 AM
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As for the lawsuit, Rene Herse’s big problem is spoliation of evidence in not preserving the tire. At a minimum the plaintiff gets a jury instruction that the tire would have been helpful in proving their case.

As for tubeless road being a mess, I think you’re painting with way too broad a brush. The issue here appears to be whether this particular tire was safe to use with hookless rims.

The one incident may or may not tell you much about hookless rims with other road tires. And it tells you nothing about road tubeless on hooked rims.
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Old 04-08-22, 08:38 AM
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Also, being a defense lawyer, I may not be very sympathetic to plaintiffs, but who files a law suit over what essentially appears to be some road rash?

Any tire can blow out and lead to a fall, for any number of reasons. It’s a risk inherent in cycling. When the adverse consequence is some road rash and a pulled muscle, put on some tagaderm, and suck it up.
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Old 04-08-22, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
As for tubeless road being a mess, I think youíre painting with way too broad a brush. The issue here appears to be whether this particular tire was safe to use with hookless rims.
Am I though? You have rim/wheel brands that specify which tires they accept on their wheels. I would say that alone is clear evidence that road tubeless is a mess. Tire brands and wheel brands are both constantly checking compatibility for safety. Users at home are constantly confused as to what will or wont work and what combo of tire with their rim will actually even mount without using a mounting tool that looks like the Jaws of Life.
Industry news op-eds write about the confusion. Industry insiders have discussed the frustration.

It sure doesnt seem like too broad a brush. Saying its a mess seems very much on point.
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Old 04-08-22, 08:56 AM
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I have some Compass [sic, NOS] 38mm Barlow Pass tires on my (hooked, tubed) rims now. I think more changed than just the Rene Herse label, and that the ones that actually say "Compass" on them, even if they are NOS, aren't "tubeless ready." They don't say "don't use as tubeless," but I got the impression somewhere that I shouldn't.
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Old 04-08-22, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Am I though? You have rim/wheel brands that specify which tires they accept on their wheels. I would say that alone is clear evidence that road tubeless is a mess. Tire brands and wheel brands are both constantly checking compatibility for safety. Users at home are constantly confused as to what will or wont work and what combo of tire with their rim will actually even mount without using a mounting tool that looks like the Jaws of Life.
Industry news op-eds write about the confusion. Industry insiders have discussed the frustration.

It sure doesnt seem like too broad a brush. Saying its a mess seems very much on point.
You are painting with an overly broad brush. Have you actually read what those rim manufacturers say on their website? Itís not confusing in the least. At least in my opinion.

I havenít mounted a tubeless tire with any other than my hands in over two years. Everyone paints tubeless as this horrible to maintain process where itís really not much more effort than a tubed tire- again jmo
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Old 04-08-22, 09:09 AM
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The problems with "road" tubeless, specifically (which is what mstateglfr was focusing on), are the much higher pressures and typically narrower tires. The current Rene Herse (formerly Compass) recommendation is not to use tubeless for anything less than 35mm tires. The wider tires like the 38mm Barlow Pass are run at much lower than typical road pressures (eg: 40 psi vs 80+ psi).
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Old 04-08-22, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Am I though? You have rim/wheel brands that specify which tires they accept on their wheels. I would say that alone is clear evidence that road tubeless is a mess. Tire brands and wheel brands are both constantly checking compatibility for safety. Users at home are constantly confused as to what will or wont work and what combo of tire with their rim will actually even mount without using a mounting tool that looks like the Jaws of Life.
Industry news op-eds write about the confusion. Industry insiders have discussed the frustration.

It sure doesnt seem like too broad a brush. Saying its a mess seems very much on point.
So you need to know that your tire is compatible with your rim, and you run appropriate tire pressure.

Admittedly, thereís some confusion to sort out, as different manufacturers take different approaches. However, like most things it will sort itself out.

And even now, many of us seem to be successfully managing putting the right tire in the right rim. ItĒs not rocket surgery.
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Old 04-08-22, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Admittedly, thereís some confusion to sort out, as different manufacturers take different approaches. However, like most things it will sort itself out.
So there is confusion, brands take different approaches, and things are not yet sorted out.

^ I call that 'a mess'. It certainly isnt a harmonic and tidy process.
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Old 04-08-22, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post

It sure doesnt seem like too broad a brush. Saying its a mess seems very much on point.
Yes, itís a mess.
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Old 04-08-22, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
So you need to know that your tire is compatible with your rim, and you run appropriate tire pressure.

Admittedly, thereís some confusion to sort out, as different manufacturers take different approaches. However, like most things it will sort itself out.

And even now, many of us seem to be successfully managing putting the right tire in the right rim. ItĒs not rocket surgery.
The (current) directions on the Rene Herse website are rather explicit, and better than any others that I have seen. The plaintiff claims to have done everything correctly, and still suffered injury as a result of the tire blowing off. Keep in mind also that the plaintiff's medical insurance company may well be the one bringing the suit, even if the plaintiff himself just shrugs it off as bad luck or user error.

My kid is running 23 mm Vittoria tires tubeless at high pressure on Bontrager carbon rims. Supposedly this will work fine (and so far it has), but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he blows a tire off. I had a tubed 28mm Vittoria blow off a hooked rim. Shyte happens. If it happens at high speed, the results can be problematic.
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Old 04-08-22, 10:49 AM
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I guess that I don't understand why people that think XYZ is a mess don't just leave well enough alone from XYZ.

I have TSS wheels (Zipp 303S) and I know to pair them with tires that the manufacturer has stated are compliant with ETRTO TSS standards - simple enough. If one wishes to avoid that kind of "mess," fine, but it's dreadfully tedious to defend the hyperbolic admonitions being hurled from people on the sidelines.
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Old 04-08-22, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
The (current) directions on the Rene Herse website are rather explicit, and better than any others that I have seen.
The incident happened 3 years ago. As many people have observed, the directions on the RH website have changed since then.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I guess that I don't understand why people that think XYZ is a mess don't just leave well enough alone from XYZ.

I have TSS wheels (Zipp 303S) and I know to pair them with tires that the manufacturer has stated are compliant with ETRTO TSS standards - simple enough. If one wishes to avoid that kind of "mess," fine, but it's dreadfully tedious to defend the hyperbolic admonitions being hurled from people on the sidelines.
While Zipp may explicitly state which tires are compatible with their rims, other wheel manufacturers do not. It's not a condemnation of tubeless, but the compatibility issue is a real problem.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
It's not a condemnation of tubeless, but the compatibility issue is a real problem.
If that's one's perception, fine - just stay away, rather than form a peanut gallery.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
While Zipp may explicitly state which tires are compatible with their rims, other wheel manufacturers do not. It's not a condemnation of tubeless, but the compatibility issue is a real problem.
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
If that's one's perception, fine - just stay away, rather than form a peanut gallery.
It's not an issue of perception. The wheel and tire manufacturers understand there are compatibility issues, and they are trying to sort it out. The situation will likely get ironed out in the near future but, for now, it is what it is.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
It's not an issue of perception. The wheel and tire manufacturers understand there are compatibility issues, and they are trying to sort it out. The situation will likely get ironed out in the near future but, for now, it is what it is.
Okay, sure. So why not just wash your hands of it and be done with it? Those that are comfortably navigating the waters don't need to constantly be told about how treacherous it is from those on shore.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The incident happened 3 years ago. As many people have observed, the directions on the RH website have changed since then.
Hence my use of "(current)".

My main point is the 38mm Barlow Pass tires may have changed as well since 2019. About six months ago I purchased some "Compass" 38mm Barlow Pass tires from a LBS, which presumably are NOS dating to 2019 or before (when the name and label changed to "Rene Herse"). The packaging did not explicitly say that they were tubeless-compatible, and I do know that the treading was slightly thicker that what is on the current Barlow Pass tires labeled "Rene Herse," so some things have actually changed with these tires as well, not just the website description. Whether that change is limited only to the label and the tread thickness and tire mass, I do not know.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:32 AM
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Id be embarrassed to call attention to a crash due to a tire blowout.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Okay, sure. So why not just wash your hands of it and be done with it? Those that are comfortably navigating the waters don't need to constantly be told about how treacherous it is from those on shore.
What's your problem? This thread is about a lawsuit involving tubeless tires, and the primary issue in the lawsuit will be compatibility of the defendant's tires when used on the plaintiff's wheels. Comments about present compatibility issues are spot on topic.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:33 AM
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Old 04-08-22, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
What's your problem? This thread is about a lawsuit involving tubeless tires, and the primary issue in the lawsuit will be compatibility of the defendant's tires when used on the plaintiff's wheels. Comments about present compatibility issues are spot on topic.
I'm commenting on the practice that's rampant on BF, in general. Lots of comments, like the OP, exist solely provide unsolicited *****ing, moaning, and complaining while warning off others from something that they seemingly have little interest or experience with. Why dedicate time and energy to something like that? It's like hate-watching a show just so you can enumerate its flaws to fans of the show. It's weird.
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Old 04-08-22, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I'm commenting on the practice that's rampant on BF, in general. Lots of comments, like the OP, exist solely provide unsolicited *****ing, moaning, and complaining while warning off others from something that they seemingly have little interest or experience with. Why dedicate time and energy to something like that? It's like hate-watching a show just so you can enumerate its flaws to fans of the show. It's weird.
It's best to read a post before complaining about what was written:

Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
While Zipp may explicitly state which tires are compatible with their rims, other wheel manufacturers do not. It's not a condemnation of tubeless, but the compatibility issue is a real problem.
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Old 04-08-22, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Between higher pressures, rims that are cheaper to make being pushed as better, and sizing of both rims and tires being less than ideal...it is a mess
I hadn't even heard of these. When you say cheaper to make does this mainly apply to carbon fibre rims? The aluminium ones you just scooch out of your extrudifier surely and it should all be basically the same?

In fact over the years they've been able to make much finer extrusions anyway.
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Old 04-08-22, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Id be embarrassed to call attention to a crash due to a tire blowout.
You call attention to it by going to the hospital and wracking up charges. The attention of your insurance company, specifically. THEY go after whomever they believe they can recover costs from. They even have a BS term for the procedure: subrogation.
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