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More Froome disk bashing

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More Froome disk bashing

Old 04-28-22, 11:29 AM
  #26  
tomato coupe
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Froome is ...
Read the quote:

ďThe biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. Thatís it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."

The cited issue is the extra weight of disc brakes, and having to lose that weight somewhere else on the bike. The situation would be the same with a dropper post - you'd have to lose the added weight somewhere else on the bike.
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Old 04-28-22, 11:55 AM
  #27  
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I think the issue here is CM doesn't like disc brakes for whatever reason. More importantly, he doesn't get much of a say in what he gets to ride. Even on his off days. He can log into BF and read(even discuss) in disguise all of the equipment topics we do every day. In the end though, he uses what his team/sponsors tell him to for the most part. He also has people constantly asking him for a statement on subjects like equipment opinions. "No comment" can't be used every time

Last edited by seypat; 04-28-22 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 04-28-22, 11:56 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Read the quote:

ďThe biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. Thatís it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."

The cited issue is the extra weight of disc brakes, and having to lose that weight somewhere else on the bike. The situation would be the same with a dropper post - you'd have to lose the added weight somewhere else on the bike.
But even if the weights are the same, there is a big difference. You would only used the dropper post for races where it would help. Swapping it out is easy. Once on, the discs are always there.
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Old 04-28-22, 01:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Serious question to help the uninformed. Koolstop pads are the one and only when it comes to rim brakes. Are they considered the same for disc pads?
I have Koolstops in right now, but I only went to them because Shimano weren't available. I get the impression that most others are of a similar disposition. I'm not quite through the bedding-in phase, but I'm not sure that I'll be able to tell the Koolstops from the Shimanos; maybe wear rates will be different, but I'm thinking that the clamping power of hydraulic calipers might shrink the differences between pads in a way that rim brakes don't.
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Old 04-28-22, 01:07 PM
  #30  
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Both Larry and Froomie are bashing disc brakes.

Worlds are colliding!

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Old 04-28-22, 01:51 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Froome is talking racing.
Then this should have been posted in the racing forum.
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Old 04-28-22, 02:04 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Then this should have been posted in the racing forum.
The thread forum chosen was not my decision nor is it something I have to power to change. This entire thread is taking what Froome said out of context. I'm just putting it back in.
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Old 04-28-22, 02:20 PM
  #33  
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As I live in the non-racer world, I prefer discs and simply would not buy a rim-brake bike again...not that I would have many choices anyway unless I went super low end. I am sure some racers make valid points but it is too late and most racers are fine with them, it seems. Rim brakes are practically gone if I want a higher-end bike.
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Old 04-28-22, 02:31 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Froome is talking racing. Disc brakes only get you to the finish line faster if there are corners you need to brake for. The rest of the time they are slower in both weight and wind resistance. Wheel changes with disc can be a race wrecker. Often after a change, especially getting a generic wheel off the neutral service support, there is disk rub and a second wheel change or bike change is needed. Teams do their best to have their cars behind their key riders but a lot isn't under their control. They have one car and often riders in both the break up the road and in the main peloton. On narrow roads, they may be unable or simply banned by race officials from passing the peloton to support riders in the break.

So, as great as disc brakes are, the risk is there that you will not be able go get a good, fast wheel change when you need it. And if other riders hear with their radios that you have just gotten a slow change, they may well send their strongest rider to the front to drive the pace at insane speed the next 10 kilometers just so you don't get back on. That slow wheel change might have just cost you 5 minutes and all chances of an overall win.

And dropper posts? OK, weight. But in the right race, it could allow you to open a gap. They might also allow the flyweights to descend fast enough to not get dropped and therefore stay with a group of strong downhill and flat ground riders. Again, minor losses going uphill in exchange for a race saver downhill. Seconds spent to prevent minutes lost.

This stuff isn't about grams, wind tunnel watts and seconds lost, it's about having gear that actually supports the rider in a race. That deals with what actually happens in races. Rim brakes and quick releases stayed around so long because in race situations (ie the flats that will probably keep happening for a few more years; light fast rubber being that important) they work really well. 20 second rear wheel changes are the norm. Rider will have a front wheel off before the support car arrives. Any wheel works. (Well, the rear derailleur will probably need a touch of adjustment after a neutral service wheel but that can be done while moving and is the same issue, disk or rim brake.)

I don't particularly care for Chris Froome, but I totally get where he's coming from. Disc brakes don't help him win races and are likely to cost him, either in crucial time or loss of a teammate at a critical moment. This could cost him far more than the 30-60 seconds he might lose braking sooner on mountain descents.
Iím curious. How long do you think it takes to change a disc brake wheel with a thru-axle? Itís maybe an extra 5 seconds to unscrew and rescrew a TA vs undoing a QR
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Old 04-28-22, 02:38 PM
  #35  
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I will never buy a rim brake bike again.
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Old 04-28-22, 02:41 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
The thread forum chosen was not my decision nor is it something I have to power to change. This entire thread is taking what Froome said out of context. I'm just putting it back in.
Yeah I'm not saying you did anything wrong, I'm agreeing with you that this has no relevance to us. 🙂
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Old 04-28-22, 02:43 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
I will never buy a rim brake bike again.
​​​​​​It would have to bea great deal on a great bike for me to consider it. Probably won't happen.
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Old 04-28-22, 02:49 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Chandne View Post
As I live in the non-racer world, I prefer discs and simply would not buy a rim-brake bike again...not that I would have many choices anyway unless I went super low end. I am sure some racers make valid points but it is too late and most racers are fine with them, it seems. Rim brakes are practically gone if I want a higher-end bike.
Agreed. Regardless of how we got here, or what the merits are (or what Chris Froome's mechanic thinks), the industry and general buying public have clearly moved on.

I'd be interested in seeing a 2022 list of available high-end/race oriented road bikes with rim brakes. I'm guessing it's a very short list.
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Old 04-28-22, 02:51 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​It would have to bea great deal on a great bike for me to consider it. Probably won't happen.
I guess maybe I should add a caveat that I will never buy a NEW rim brake bike again. I'd make exceptions for something retro, or some kind of oddball new-old-stock situation.

I'm to a point where I would question buying a kids bike with rim brakes.
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Old 04-28-22, 03:04 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
I'd be interested in seeing a 2022 list of available high-end/race oriented road bikes with rim brakes. I'm guessing it's a very short list.
And half (or more) of them would be frameset only.
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Old 04-28-22, 03:49 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
Iím curious. How long do you think it takes to change a disc brake wheel with a thru-axle? Itís maybe an extra 5 seconds to unscrew and rescrew a TA vs undoing a QR
i assume the issue is not how long it takes under ideal circumstances but what happens when the alignment of the disk and caliper is off and it rubs? then you have to loosen the caliper bolts, brake, tighten the bolts? or maybe the pros have some secret sauce to prevent this.

probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
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Old 04-28-22, 07:58 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
i assume the issue is not how long it takes under ideal circumstances but what happens when the alignment of the disk and caliper is off and it rubs? then you have to loosen the caliper bolts, brake, tighten the bolts? or maybe the pros have some secret sauce to prevent this.

probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
I'm new to discs, adjusting, etc. and so far I believe it takes more than a few seconds longer to change a disc wheel vs. rim brakes, especially in the back where you have to line up the rotor as well as get the axle holes lined up so the axle can go through easily, all the while getting the chain on - moving the RD, etc. With a rim brake wheel, really all you're dealing with is the RD and chain since the dropouts put the axle in the right place and theres a huge gap in the brake pads so it's not tough to line up that either. I'm sure more experienced people do it much more efficiently.

But to the point of clearance and the DA calipers having greater clearance. That to me is an interesting and key point that could make this whole thing easier. Larger gap beteween the pads would be more forgiving in both installing the wheel and adjusting the brakes. Since I'm not an engineer, I wonder if there is a way to design the hydraulic system so a larger gap between the pads could still have the same engagement feel at the levers? That to me would be a huge selling point.
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Old 04-28-22, 07:59 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​It would have to bea great deal on a great bike for me to consider it. Probably won't happen.
I'd pay a premium for a top line rim brake frame or complete bike.
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Old 04-29-22, 03:19 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
i assume the issue is not how long it takes under ideal circumstances but what happens when the alignment of the disk and caliper is off and it rubs? then you have to loosen the caliper bolts, brake, tighten the bolts? or maybe the pros have some secret sauce to prevent this.

probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. Iím sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
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Old 04-29-22, 08:58 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
I'd pay a premium for a top line rim brake frame or complete bike.
Okay, pick one and send us a pic when you get it.....

https://www.theproscloset.com/collec...ice-descending
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Old 04-29-22, 09:05 AM
  #46  
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UCI should mandate a spec for brakes so everyone will be on the same playing field. Then the complainers would just be whining.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:05 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. Iím sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
Same here, on both my Aspero and my road bike.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:21 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. Iím sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
Same. I swap disc wheels frequently on my Cannondale SuperX. I had to shim the rotors on one wheelset to get them to align without rubbing (different brand hubs and 6 bolt vs centerlock rotors, also different brand rotors... so a lot of variables at play), but once that was done they go on/off with no adjusting needed.

Even when I had to adjust calipers, it took just a few minutes.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:30 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. I’m sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
i do the same, gravel and road wheels/tires, and sometimes have to loosen the calipers, brake, retighten. it takes 30 seconds perhaps, and tends to occur when i've ridden one wheelset for a long time before switching. rotor position looks dead on relative to hub/axle on both wheelsets. this is one of those things that's probably a way bigger deal to someone competing than it is to me, to whom it is zero deal at all.
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Old 04-29-22, 02:17 PM
  #50  
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I understand that Disk brake technology is an advancement in braking performance. But I feel like bikes overall have taken a step backwards to make this disk brake dream a reality. I don't spend a lot if time on long decent so it's not a big deal to me. Making my bike heavier is just to counterintuitive to me.
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