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More Froome disk bashing

Old 04-27-22, 09:32 AM
  #1  
popeye
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More Froome disk bashing

Gary Blem (Froomes mech) says disc brake performance isn’t yet where it needs to be, manufacturers forced the tech onto the peloton, and believes that Froome will reach the top again

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/fr...n-discs-292279

“Chris is not a huge fan. There’s the noise factor, it’s not super-reliable, wheel changes are way slower – so I think those are aspects that can improve."
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Old 04-27-22, 10:23 AM
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Everybody has an opinion...
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Old 04-27-22, 10:31 AM
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The negatives are not much of a factor for us wanna-be's. It's not like I need to be super quick changing wheel or tube when even on a organized Century ride. Nor is the ever so slight more weight much of a factor for those of us not racing.

For me it was all about the dwindling selection of wheels with rim brakes. Seems very unlikely for the near term that any big technological improvements to rims and wheels will be ported to rim brake wheels just due to the lack of sales volume. So we'll be stuck with old tech, just as are those hanging on to other things from bygone days.

Froome's resistance to disc brakes might be immaterial anyway. The bikes ridden in the TdF and other tours and races must be what is currently manufactured and sold by bike manufacturer's or very soon to be available to the masses. So if the mfrs don't make bikes with rim brakes, he won't be having a bike with rim brakes to ride in the TdF.

My only gripe about discs is that I'll pay more in the long run replacing pads and rotors than I ever did on a rim brake bike.

Last edited by Iride01; 04-27-22 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 04-27-22, 11:08 AM
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I'd like to see rim brakes developed, hydraulic direct mount?

In 10,000 mile in my disk bike i've gone thru four sets of pads at $ 200 per set.
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Old 04-27-22, 11:16 AM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by santambrogio View Post
In 10,000 mile in my disk bike i've gone thru four sets of pads at $ 200 per set.
Both of these figures wildly differ from my experience.
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Old 04-27-22, 11:16 AM
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Wheel changes are slower on average. Often costing the rider real effort to get back into the peloton and sometimes costing them the race. Many times they do bike swaps now instead. Riders offering their wheels to there team leader is often now a quite slow process. Granted, in a given race with near 200 riders, the few lost opportunities caused by disc wheel change issues is small, but more than several races have had team leaders knocked out of the running since discs by slow changes. And on most races, discs gain you zero in time advantage. Criteriums and mountain descents, yes, real advantages (and in criteriums, with the free lap for wheel changes, no cost). But all the rest of the time, there is the issue of costly lost time from flats.

I observe how long wheel changes take and the effort needed for that rider to rejoin the peloton. Been observing that since I was exposed to racing. Things are different now and it is not to the riders' advantage.
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Old 04-27-22, 11:16 AM
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See? I was right all along.
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Old 04-27-22, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by santambrogio View Post
I'd like to see rim brakes developed, hydraulic direct mount?

In 10,000 mile in my disk bike i've gone thru four sets of pads at $ 200 per set.
There are no disc brake pads that cost $200 per set. So don't even make that ridiculous claim.

And if you're really going through pads every 2500 miles, you are doing something very, very wrong.
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Old 04-27-22, 11:47 AM
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Since I'm not in the know, how much/how long should an average 105 level set cost/last?
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Old 04-27-22, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
See? I was right all along.
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Old 04-27-22, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Since I'm not in the know, how much/how long should an average 105 level set cost/last?
Mileage depends, but 2500 miles per set is quite low - maybe if you're routinely dragging brakes down a mountain, or you're in stop-and-go on a cargo ebike, or if you're frequently riding in wet, gritty conditions.

Shimano's best pads, with the cooling fins and whatnot, are usually going to be in the neighborhood of $25-30 per pair when they're available. They haven't been available lately, but $100 per pair would be an absurd amount to fork over for them when there are third party options readily available.
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Old 04-27-22, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Mileage depends, but 2500 miles per set is quite low - maybe if you're routinely dragging brakes down a mountain, or you're in stop-and-go on a cargo ebike, or if you're frequently riding in wet, gritty conditions.

Shimano's best pads, with the cooling fins and whatnot, are usually going to be in the neighborhood of $25-30 per pair when they're available. They haven't been available lately, but $100 per pair would be an absurd amount to fork over for them when there are third party options readily available.
Thanks.
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Old 04-27-22, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Since I'm not in the know, how much/how long should an average 105 level set cost/last?
I live in an extremely hilly area and regularly ride my gravel bikes in dirty/muddy conditions; I generally get at least 6,000 miles from the front pads, and longer life from the rear. Note that brake pad lifespan is highly dependent on riding conditions; generally, though, the conditions that frequently wear out brake pads would, with rim brakes, wear out rims more frequently, too. So, even if a person does wear out disc brake pads pretty quickly, they may be more cost-effective than rim brakes.

And as for brake pad cost: there are NO brake disc brake pads that cost $200 even for two sets (i.e., doing both wheels at once). That is hogwash. Here is the current Amazon product page for Shimano disc brake pads, and note that even these prices are still a bit inflated due to pandemic-related shortages.
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Old 04-27-22, 03:14 PM
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Back in the real world I still prefer disc brakes overall. One finger consistent modulation, plenty of room for wider tyres, no grinding up an expensive pair of carbon rims. Can't say I've suffered any reliability issues either. They can be a bit noisy in the wet, but I don't ride much in the wet if I can help it.
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Old 04-27-22, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by santambrogio View Post
I'd like to see rim brakes developed, hydraulic direct mount?

In 10,000 mile in my disk bike i've gone thru four sets of pads at $ 200 per set.
$200/set? Get real. Even Campy pads are only $50/pair.
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Old 04-27-22, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by santambrogio View Post
I'd like to see rim brakes developed, hydraulic direct mount?

In 10,000 mile in my disk bike i've gone thru four sets of pads at $ 200 per set.
I have to replace my pads every mile! It's $800 per pad, where are you getting deals like that?
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Old 04-27-22, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by santambrogio View Post
I'd like to see rim brakes developed, hydraulic direct mount?

In 10,000 mile in my disk bike i've gone thru four sets of pads at $ 200 per set.
Ah really? I did about the distance last year on disc with a lot of downhills, my cheap pads seem to hold up fine.
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Old 04-27-22, 07:23 PM
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Serious question to help the uninformed. Koolstop pads are the one and only when it comes to rim brakes. Are they considered the same for disc pads?

Last edited by seypat; 04-28-22 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 04-27-22, 08:01 PM
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On a heavy bike, a heavy-ish rider, with little skill, dragging both brakes down frequent long steep descents in a mix of sun, fog, wind, rain, blowing sand, etc etc, i fully trashed a set of front pads in around 2,000 miles, and rears in about 4,000 miles. At $30/set that worked out to around 2 cents a mile, which i’m not going to lose sleep over, considering that the $$$$ rims are as pristine as the day they arrived.

Since then I’ve gone through them much more slowly. $200 every 2,000 miles is insane.
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Old 04-27-22, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
. . . Nor is the ever so slight more weight much of a factor .
*gasp*
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Old 04-28-22, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by santambrogio View Post
I'd like to see rim brakes developed, hydraulic direct mount?
I believe SRAM came out with hydro rim brakes around 9 or 10 years ago, but it looks like they gave up on them in favor of discs.
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Old 04-28-22, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Both of these figures wildly differ from my experience.
You are right, I reacted, the prices are half of what I wrote.

My first miles on disks were a disappointment, slower descents and weird feel. I'm ok with disks now, but I still get about 4,000 mile on a set of 4 pads. For road bikes a better option would be direct mount hydraulic rim brakes.
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Old 04-28-22, 09:49 AM
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"“The biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. That’s it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."

"Blem also says that Froome was thinking about dropper posts long before Matej Mohorič used one to help win this year’s, Milan-San Remo."

The biggest problem with disc brakes is the weight penalty, but dropper posts are okay?
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Old 04-28-22, 10:56 AM
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I don’t know… I’d rather burn through pads than my Zipps. Froome is just a retro-grouch
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Old 04-28-22, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
"“The biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. That’s it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."

"Blem also says that Froome was thinking about dropper posts long before Matej Mohorič used one to help win this year’s, Milan-San Remo."

The biggest problem with disc brakes is the weight penalty, but dropper posts are okay?
Froome is talking racing. Disc brakes only get you to the finish line faster if there are corners you need to brake for. The rest of the time they are slower in both weight and wind resistance. Wheel changes with disc can be a race wrecker. Often after a change, especially getting a generic wheel off the neutral service support, there is disk rub and a second wheel change or bike change is needed. Teams do their best to have their cars behind their key riders but a lot isn't under their control. They have one car and often riders in both the break up the road and in the main peloton. On narrow roads, they may be unable or simply banned by race officials from passing the peloton to support riders in the break.

So, as great as disc brakes are, the risk is there that you will not be able go get a good, fast wheel change when you need it. And if other riders hear with their radios that you have just gotten a slow change, they may well send their strongest rider to the front to drive the pace at insane speed the next 10 kilometers just so you don't get back on. That slow wheel change might have just cost you 5 minutes and all chances of an overall win.

And dropper posts? OK, weight. But in the right race, it could allow you to open a gap. They might also allow the flyweights to descend fast enough to not get dropped and therefore stay with a group of strong downhill and flat ground riders. Again, minor losses going uphill in exchange for a race saver downhill. Seconds spent to prevent minutes lost.

This stuff isn't about grams, wind tunnel watts and seconds lost, it's about having gear that actually supports the rider in a race. That deals with what actually happens in races. Rim brakes and quick releases stayed around so long because in race situations (ie the flats that will probably keep happening for a few more years; light fast rubber being that important) they work really well. 20 second rear wheel changes are the norm. Rider will have a front wheel off before the support car arrives. Any wheel works. (Well, the rear derailleur will probably need a touch of adjustment after a neutral service wheel but that can be done while moving and is the same issue, disk or rim brake.)

I don't particularly care for Chris Froome, but I totally get where he's coming from. Disc brakes don't help him win races and are likely to cost him, either in crucial time or loss of a teammate at a critical moment. This could cost him far more than the 30-60 seconds he might lose braking sooner on mountain descents.
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