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Steel road bike comfort- carbon vs aluminum wheels

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Steel road bike comfort- carbon vs aluminum wheels

Old 04-28-22, 06:56 PM
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signalnc
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Steel road bike comfort- carbon vs aluminum wheels

Hi all. I am riding a 2016 steel frame made from Columbus Spirit. (torelli nitro express). It has Easton EA 70 wheels. I'm not thrilled with the wheels, and I am looking to upgrade. Will carbon wheels ride better, dampen road vibrations? or will it have no affect on ride quality. Thanks

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Old 04-28-22, 07:00 PM
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Wider tires and a little lower pressure will probably make the most difference but a nice set of wheels can be nice on a bike however it may not quite do a ton for comfort and more for weight if anything.
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Old 04-28-22, 08:09 PM
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In conventional wheel design, and with the typical deep section, aero profile carbon fiber rim, that kind of wheel will ride more stiffly than a lower profile aluminum rimmed wheel.

Fiber spoke wheels, like Berd and Spinergy, are a different paradigm with substantially more comfort even in deep, aero-section applications.
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Old 04-28-22, 08:13 PM
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If you are getting new wheels looking for comfort, make sure that the rim width is wide enough to accommodate say 28mm tyres without bulging beyond the outer rim width (google rule of 105%) so you can run these wide tyres without aero penalty and benefit from running them at a lower pressure. If aero is not that important for you, it's probably also worthwhile trying wider tyres on your current wheels, if that's all you are after. But if your wheels are poor quality, coming out of true all the time, flex too much, or too heavy, then by any means decent carbon wheels should do the job.
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Old 04-28-22, 08:32 PM
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Even with narrow-ish tires inflated to 90-100psi you'll never really notice any difference in 'ride quality' between pretty much any wheels. If they were that 'soft' they'd fall apart in no time.
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Old 04-29-22, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by yaw View Post
If you are getting new wheels looking for comfort, make sure that the rim width is wide enough to accommodate say 28mm tyres without bulging beyond the outer rim width (google rule of 105%) so you can run these wide tyres without aero penalty and benefit from running them at a lower pressure. If aero is not that important for you, it's probably also worthwhile trying wider tyres on your current wheels, if that's all you are after. But if your wheels are poor quality, coming out of true all the time, flex too much, or too heavy, then by any means decent carbon wheels should do the job.
I see this so frequently and typically just ignore it, but for some reason I am feeling disagreeable.

- Zipp came up with this 105% rule a decade ago before wider road tires were even a thing. Not saying it doesnt apply to wider combos, but its close to goofy when you need a 34mm wide rim to run 32mm road tires and stay in compliance with this rule.
- Zipp also swore dimples were the next great thing, so sometimes independent testing isnt perfect.
- How many watts are saved if a combo is 105% instead of 75%? I really dont know and am not disagreeing on this part, genuinely dont know. I am sure it varies based on multiple factors, but say 20mph for a constant. Is it 4 watts? Is it 40 watts?
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Old 04-29-22, 08:44 AM
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I don't notice any difference in ride comfort/compliance when switching between shallow aluminum wheels and 45mm depth carbon wheels on the same bike, with the same tires/pressure. Deeper carbon wheels are really stiff, so any compliance that comes with carbon is likely offset by that stiffness.

I think wheel compliance is probably more of a factor if you run really high tire pressures, where carbon might dampen some road buzz. I'm running 28s at 60psi, so I'm not feeling much road buzz on either setup.

I do know there are some shallow depth carbon wheels designed more around compliance (Zipp 101 Xplr for example) and those probably feel a lot more cush than an aluminum wheel. I've never tried shallow carbon wheels though.
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Old 04-29-22, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I see this so frequently and typically just ignore it, but for some reason I am feeling disagreeable.

- Zipp came up with this 105% rule a decade ago before wider road tires were even a thing. Not saying it doesnt apply to wider combos, but its close to goofy when you need a 34mm wide rim to run 32mm road tires and stay in compliance with this rule.
- Zipp also swore dimples were the next great thing, so sometimes independent testing isnt perfect.
- How many watts are saved if a combo is 105% instead of 75%? I really dont know and am not disagreeing on this part, genuinely dont know. I am sure it varies based on multiple factors, but say 20mph for a constant. Is it 4 watts? Is it 40 watts?
I would think that this rule was found by checking at what point the flow breaks off and anything below 105 would have shown a pretty rapid separation at the slightest angle. The modern real world road range of 25 to 28mm tyres fit just fine on many modern wheel offerings and aero is less of a concern when tyres get that much larger, so not sure if the goofy range is seen that often. If one employs aero wheels, which is done to gain aero advantage, which means one rides on surfaces where this sufficiently co-exists with or outweighs other factors, why would one not want to make sure that the tyre-wheel combo guides the flow down the shape more closely and at more wind angles? Be it a lightweight wheel or super deep wheel.

So if you need a fat tyre and only have 75% then you're likely not in need of aero wheels anyway, or are stuck on narrow stock wheels but need to put wider tyres on to meet local conditions and violate that rule because the aero gain would be outweighed by other factors, but that's a compromise. If someone already knows what tyres they need/want and is specifically out to buy new wheels, then informing the wheel/maker choice by making sure they are wide enough to have the desired tyre sitting flush would be the first thing I'd recommend.

First I'd want to establish what tyre is fastest/most comfortable based on priorities and then buy a wheel width that is effective with that tyre width. Whether it's 4 or 40 or 0.4 watts, I don't recall, I am sure it is marginal, but when you have the choice anyway, why not?
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Old 04-29-22, 10:16 AM
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Vibrations tend to be dampened to some degree by carbon more than aluminum, but I doubt you'd notice it in wheels. Carbon wheels are typically designed to be very stiff, which would offset somewhat the dampening characteristics of carbon. Then, you also have the rubber and air before any vibrations get to the wheels. Carbon handlebars and seat posts can feel more compliant, but that is due to a combination of the material properties and any designed flex.
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Old 04-29-22, 10:39 AM
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I have a set of very nice carbon wheels. I love them for a kitty of reasons, but vibration dampening isn't one of the things they do, at least to a noticable extent.
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Old 04-29-22, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by yaw View Post
and aero is less of a concern when tyres get that much larger
Why is it less of a concern? A larger tire means potentially a larger penalty for poor aerodynamic shape. And today's "large" road tires are still ridden in road-cycling contexts and at road-cycling speeds.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:02 AM
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Thanks for all of the input. I think I will try different psi with the aluminum rims I have now. I have 25mm continental gp5000 front and back. I don't think the frame can accommodate 28s.

I had been riding a carbon bike for 10+years and switched back to steel last year.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:22 AM
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Not all steel bikes are great comfortable rides. Maybe you need a new bike. But not all bikes of any particular material are great comfortable rides. So you'll have to try several.
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Old 04-29-22, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by signalnc View Post
I had been riding a carbon bike for 10+years and switched back to steel last year.
[... thereby reversing the flow of time and causing a rift in space time.]

But seriously, what prompted you to switch to steel?
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Old 04-29-22, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by signalnc View Post
Thanks for all of the input. I think I will try different psi with the aluminum rims I have now. I have 25mm continental gp5000 front and back. I don't think the frame can accommodate 28s.

I had been riding a carbon bike for 10+years and switched back to steel last year.
I've found the Silca Pro Pressure Calculator to be helpful as a starting point for a pressure with the lowest rolling resistance given various factors. The most comfortable pressure will likely be a lower number than the Silca calculator . . . but then it's likely slower.
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Old 04-29-22, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
Wider tires and a little lower pressure will probably make the most difference but a nice set of wheels can be nice on a bike however it may not quite do a ton for comfort and more for weight if anything.
You don't need wide tyres to get the comfort of low(er) pressure. 28mm at 55 psi will feel every bit as comfortable as 35mm at 55psi. Wide (and tall) tyres are needed in case you get rim strikes and pinch flats at your desired pressure. For reference I'm 175+ lbs and routinely run 50-60 psi in my 28mm commuter tyres, with no issues.
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Old 04-29-22, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
[... thereby reversing the flow of time and causing a rift in space time.]

But seriously, what prompted you to switch to steel?
I liked the look of the bike 😂.
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Old 04-29-22, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by yaw View Post
I would think that this rule was found by checking at what point the flow breaks off and anything below 105 would have shown a pretty rapid separation at the slightest angle. The modern real world road range of 25 to 28mm tyres fit just fine on many modern wheel offerings and aero is less of a concern when tyres get that much larger, so not sure if the goofy range is seen that often. If one employs aero wheels, which is done to gain aero advantage, which means one rides on surfaces where this sufficiently co-exists with or outweighs other factors, why would one not want to make sure that the tyre-wheel combo guides the flow down the shape more closely and at more wind angles? Be it a lightweight wheel or super deep wheel.

So if you need a fat tyre and only have 75% then you're likely not in need of aero wheels anyway, or are stuck on narrow stock wheels but need to put wider tyres on to meet local conditions and violate that rule because the aero gain would be outweighed by other factors, but that's a compromise. If someone already knows what tyres they need/want and is specifically out to buy new wheels, then informing the wheel/maker choice by making sure they are wide enough to have the desired tyre sitting flush would be the first thing I'd recommend.

First I'd want to establish what tyre is fastest/most comfortable based on priorities and then buy a wheel width that is effective with that tyre width. Whether it's 4 or 40 or 0.4 watts, I don't recall, I am sure it is marginal, but when you have the choice anyway, why not?
I am confused as to why a wider tire is not in need of aerodynamic advantage. Wouldnt any benefit in aero be even more happily applied to wider tires since you are already paying a penalty for weight and wind resistance?
Gravel road riding is just riding unpaved roads and many people connect gravel segments with paved segments so they are road riding.

I guess I just dont know why the approach to aero with wider tires would be- 'welp, since you have a wide tires, there is no helping you because the laws of wind resistance dont work with wide tires.'
Your rhetorical question of 'when you have the choice anyway, why not?' seems very on point for wider wheel and tire combos too. It may be marginal, but if its worth mentioning for a narrow tire, its worth mentioning for a wider tire.

Anyways, like I said it appears I just happened to read this view at a time when I am feeling disagreeable about it. I never really see how much it benefits the cyclist and that seems odd to me. Its like one of those things where if you repeat it often enough it becomes the way, even though nobody then really knows details about the way.
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Old 04-29-22, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
You don't need wide tyres to get the comfort of low(er) pressure. 28mm at 55 psi will feel every bit as comfortable as 35mm at 55psi. Wide (and tall) tyres are needed in case you get rim strikes and pinch flats at your desired pressure. For reference I'm 175+ lbs and routinely run 50-60 psi in my 28mm commuter tyres, with no issues.
28mm tires will feel more comfortable than 35mm tires at the same pressure. That's why they're the 'laws' of physics and not the 'suggestions'. Also it's damping not dampening.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
28mm tires will feel more comfortable than 35mm tires at the same pressure. That's why they're the 'laws' of physics and not the 'suggestions'. Also it's damping not dampening.
Ok dude. Do you even read what you quote and reply to ...?
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Old 04-30-22, 06:42 AM
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I put Styrofoam peanuts in my tires/tyres when I mount them. It really helps with the buzz/vibrations no matter the air pressure. Not much of a weight penalty either.
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Old 04-30-22, 07:51 AM
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I can tell you that from my experience, alloy wheels are more comfortable. "Better" depends on what characteristics you value most. Carbon wheels are stiffer and (especially in Mtn biking) absolutely more precise on fast rocky descents, but alloy is still more comfortable though with the new wide/shallow carbon rims, the comfort difference on the MTB is now negligible on full suspension bikes. I prefer carbon on my mountain bikes since we have suspension and fast/rocky descents.

I just sold my Terra CLs I bought for my gravel bike and went back to the stock alloys. I'll build custom alloys later on. I also cancelled my order for the Zipp 303 Firecrests since I had just built up some King R45s and Easton R90 SLs with CX Ray spokes. On the gravel bike, the Terra CLs were lighter and spun up quicker but way too harsh for me on rougher dirt/gravel. I rarely use stock alloys and have custom ones built. I'm 175 lbs and use a 28x28 usually. If I want a sightly stiffer alloy wheel, I use CX Ray spokes. I'd use carbon on the road bike but not gravel. My BMC frame is pretty compliant so I'd be okay with carbon.
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Old 04-30-22, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
You don't need wide tyres to get the comfort of low(er) pressure. 28mm at 55 psi will feel every bit as comfortable as 35mm at 55psi. Wide (and tall) tyres are needed in case you get rim strikes and pinch flats at your desired pressure. For reference I'm 175+ lbs and routinely run 50-60 psi in my 28mm commuter tyres, with no issues.
The bolded statement is a bit nonsensical.

One of the main reasons for running wider tires is the ability to run lower psi (for more comfort) while still avoiding rim strikes. No sensible rider would even consider running the same psi in 28s as in 35s.
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Old 04-30-22, 08:40 AM
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The Aero benefit of the wheel in isolation of all other factors is pretty much negligible. Sure, it will add a few watts (20-30, or whatever) of savings at 40 at 25-30 miles per hour...but what about at 15-20 mph? These things scale logarithmically.

After spending $10,000+ on "aero" wheels (Zipp 404's, Enve 7.8's (x2 sets), Vision Metron tubular)...I assert that Aero wheels are essentially bupkis for regular non-competition riding. You'll get more benefit by lowering your stem by one spacer. You'll get more benefit by getting high-quality tires. You'll get more benefit by running them tubeless. Do all 3 for the trifecta of awesomeness. Keep your money; Shun the deep section.

Aero wheels should be a non-starter for most people & most uses.

Carbon however...The new generation of low profile box section Carbon "gravel" rims are a game changer. They are purposefully designed for vertical compliance & shock absorption.

Stan's Grail CB7 (with both 28 & 24 spoke options), or We Are One Revive's (available in up to 32 spokes) specifically come to mind. At around 300-350 grams per rim they ought to spin up fast & feel sublime. Throw on some low rolling resistant rubber & enjoy the constant gain at all the speeds.


(I'm sure Enve G-series are supposedly good too, but at a 50% additional cost, for a bunch of added grams or whatever, I'm not gonna hold my breath.)



Edit: It is worth noting that the OP's intent was to address ride quality, not the 105 rule.

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Old 04-30-22, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Ok dude. Do you even read what you quote and reply to ...?
What? I replied about air pressure. I added a comment about terminology, do you not understand what I was doing or should I have made it more obvious by quoting the other posts?
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