Steve B.

My question was does LTE require a SIM card to connect to a cellular network ?. Thats how Hammerhead has the Karoo 2 do data (if no WiFi available).

Bah Humbug

It (meaning the 945LTE, here) has a built-in SIM that doesn't care what you use in your phone. It doesn't mean you go to Verizon and get a SIM for the watch; you enable it with Garmin and it works for the features they use it for.

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​Yes, but no. I mean there isn't a 1040 LTE, or any Edge LTE I think, so it's hypothetical. Because watches are so small Garmin has put a chip in that does the same thing as a sim card. It's basically the same thing you just don't physically put it in and take it out, and it can only use one specific data provider as result. But that's a workaround for not having a sim door in a watch people swim with. You can think of it as a sim card and basically be right.

Steve B.

Hammerheads method is to add a SIM card of your choice, on whatever carrier you choose. You then enable the SIM on the device, it connects when its not using WIFI

Andy Somnifac

Yeah, and there probably aren't many "reasonable" options for that data plan on the Garmin that I'm aware of. Google Fi can provide a data only SIM, but only if you're not on one of their Unlimited plans. When I was on Sprint, there was a (I think) $10 monthly charge for a data only SIM.
Plus, having a cell phone with me in the event of a mishap or emergency is why I have a phone that can go anywhere. Leaving it at home or in the car when riding seems to go against why I have it in the first place.
But different strokes for different folks. If someone wanted to pay more for connectivity and leave their phone behind, that's their call.

Andy Somnifac

There's also the complication that an eSim isn't compatible with all carriers/providers.

Bah Humbug

Yes, and I was explaining the Garmin approach, which is exactly what I want but seems to cause much confusion.

njkayaker

LTE doesn’t seem to have much use beyond live tracking (and incident detection).

Sure, it might save a little bit of phone battery but at the likely cost of significantly higher battery use in the head unit.

How many people would want to pay $7/month for it?

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2021/06/...explainer.html


It could let the device get texts but those would have to be sent to another number.

Having LTE doesn’t let the head unit replace the phone. So, many more people are likely to also be carrying a phone anyway. There are likely many more of these people than those who want to leave their phone behind.

It’s extra engineering, cost, support for no good reason.

njkayaker

You can’t pick the provider for the 945LTE. It uses whatever provider Garmin has arrangements with.

njkayaker

Maybe, it doesn’t generally work as well as expected.

Maybe, it’s not worth the hassle of making arrangements with providers to support it.

Maybe, not many people used it.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2021/06/...explainer.html

njkayaker

Yes, a SIM card of some form is required (It could be an eSIM). You can't choose the carrier. You use whatever carrier Garmin has made arrangements with.

The Karoo is really just an Android phone. It might have been cheaper to manufacture just including the SIM support that to engineer it out.

I wonder how many people spend the extra for the service for it.

prj71

The bike packers I associate with all use Garmin Edge 530 (and the battery life lasts longer than they can ride in one day) and one of these which can be used to charge the garmin and cell phone up at the same time.

https://www.amazon.com/Portable-2000...s%2C438&sr=8-3

Lot less money than buying a 1040 solar.

prj71

^^So much this.

And all this talk about LTE on a Garmin is useless if you don't have a signal. Nobody (for the most part) is leaving their phone at home when they ride anyway. So why have two devices that have LTE that you have to pay for?

Steve B.

Based on paying attention on the HH FB forum, I'd say maybe 10-15%. There are occasional folks inquiring as to what carrier folks are using. Folks use it mostly for LiveTrack and sometimes to connect to whatever sideloaded app they installed that needs cell data (I don't see many comments as to the steps needed to go that route). I tried FeedomPop, found it completely unreliable so just turned it off. Having to get a SIM card, then enable it, all to essentially just use LT was a PITA. The Garmin method of just using the BT connection you've already enabled to your smartphone, is far easier to use, you just enable in the GCM. As well and with some recent updates, Garmin LiveTrack pretty much works reliably for me.

And this touches on the whole idea of LTE in the device. I would guess that 95% of riders bring a phone along on their rides, if only as they recognize the potential to needing a phone in an emergency or mechanical issue. Thus they will likely have the ability to get a connection (if there's available cell coverage) for vis the Garmin phone app for LT, Incident Detection and Notifications, so at that point I cannot see a need for any stand-alone connection right off the device.

Andy Somnifac

Then that would be a dealbreaker for me. Not that Garmin should care as I'm not the target for a watch of this type, but if I'm going to pay a data subscription fee (and I assume there has to be a monthly fee) for a data connection, I'd like it to be all tied to whatever single provider I choose for all my mobile enabled devices.

njkayaker

LTE is going to be more useful generally on the Karoo (because it's really just a smartphone).

I suspect people who are interested in this feature might be more likely to be forum members. The usage in the overall population might much less.

As a WAG, I suspect that 5% of Garmin users use the Garmin forums.

And it seems very likely that more Karoo users are also carrying phones with them than are using LTE on their Karoo.

Outside of live tracking, I don't see why people wouldn't just tether their Karoo to the phone they are rather likely to be carrying anyway.

I think Garmin leveraging the device that many/most people are already carrying makes a lot of sense.

I think carrying a phone while riding is much less of a nuisance than carrying one running. That is, LTE on a non-phone device is more valuable for runners than it is for cyclists. For "serious" people, runner are likely spending less time on the activity than cyclists. That might mean that runners are more likely to not care as much about "full" connectivity than cyclists and have less of an issue not having their phone for that period.

You read this, right?

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2021/06/...explainer.html

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​No. People will only spend the extra premium on this feature because they want the ability to leave their phone behind. Most customers don't pay extra for that ability and then not use it.

njkayaker

Yes, obviously.

I suspect there aren't that many of these people*. Not enough of a market to have to negotiate with the carriers in multiple places/countries to provide it.

Anyway, it's actually only people who want tracking and incident detection and want to leave their phone behind. That's an even smaller number of people who want to leave their phone behind.

The LTE in the watch serves a limited purpose (tracking and incident detection). Many people are still going to want to get texts and phone calls. (Users of newer Apple watches get much more of the features a phone provides.)

* It's likely that there is a higher percentage of runners who would be interested (I talked about why earlier).

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​You've said that many times already. We know what your guess is.

njkayaker

And you keep ignoring it.

The new fr955 doesn't provide an LTE option. That might suggest there isn't much of a market for it. Though, they might release a version later (the ft945LTE is recent; released a year ago).

LTE just for tracking and incident detection is not that useful except to a rather limited number of people. If they are that interested in it, they can get the fr945LTE watch.

The incident detection without being able to contact the person with the incident has issues too.

How many people use the tracking and incident detection (and they are separate features) on the Edges?

Troul 

over a decade ago, I could rationale that for my area. Seeing how times have changed (downhill) I would much rather have a smart phone that can capture vids/pics & have the capability for dialing out. A bicycle computer with a tracking subscriptions plan will only give the approx location on where I was hit & potentially dragged for a quarter of a mile before being carpeted into the river.

njkayaker

The fr945LTE uses "Cat M1" (LTE-M).

https://www.onlogic.com/company/io-h...20Per%20Second.

This is LTE for limited data transfers.

Seattle Forrest

I would rather have a Cervelo than a Trek.

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​I have your guess the consideration it deserves, now it's time to move on. ​​​​​​​

njkayaker

You really need to publish the rules for posting you have. It's impossible to know what random crap is going to upset you.