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Is there an advantage to hookless rims?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Is there an advantage to hookless rims?

Old 06-15-22, 11:28 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Just guessing that if that vintage of a rim, it was meant to take wire-bead tires. Not sure what you tried though -- I assume you were using tubes though and not trying a tubeless setup?
Yes to tube. New tires were Kenda. Switched the rims for Sun CR18. Problem solved.
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Old 06-15-22, 11:33 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Those sucked. They still do. You can still get tires and most will work well but there is nothing wrong with running them lower. If you blow a tire off then it's trash. It will never really hold ever again. Same for tubeless tires BTW (hooked or not). As for standard - It worked a bit better back in the day as Schwinn was in charge of the standards and did a better job with vendors and supply chain. Now we are too diverse. There exists standards but the devil is in the details and no one is sharing the details unless you pay to be included and sign the NDA that says you won't throw anyone under the bus when you find out its all a mess. Control the variance stack and control on the standards is what everyone seemingly is complaining about.


That was a Schwinn hookless standard. It requires a specific tire with an "S" designation. Can't remember the specifics but they are readily available. Something like an S5 or S7 or some such. I always have to look it up.
Thanks for the answer.
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Old 06-15-22, 01:58 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
The real danger is when this garbage gets in general circulation and eventually enters the 2nd hand market. Someone not knowing to look for a hook or even knowing "normal" rims has hooks, will mount a clincher and a tube, and have it blow off. If it haven't already happened, it will. - Considering the endless noob questions about expensive bikes and parts I see every day on FB.


Of course ppl will endlessly argue the user is a fault, however there is no safety mechanism to prevent this. They even made the rim the exact same size, making every tyre out there superficially compatible even if most TL and every clincher will create an unsafe condition.
I agree with this, but it's also worth noting that this concern isn't exclusive to rims/tires. There are a myriad of high end bike parts that are equally (or more) dangerous in the wrong hands.

How many carbon steerer tubes are out there with compression plugs that are not correctly installed, for example? How many seat post or stem clamps are over-torqued on carbon tubes just waiting to fail? How many people are riding around with cracks in frames?

There was a thread in another section of this forum just a few weeks ago where someone said they were wedging homemade shims cut out of Coke cans behind their SRAM hydro brake pads because the lever was bottoming out.
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Old 06-15-22, 02:53 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
I agree with this, but it's also worth noting that this concern isn't exclusive to rims/tires. There are a myriad of high end bike parts that are equally (or more) dangerous in the wrong hands.

How many carbon steerer tubes are out there with compression plugs that are not correctly installed, for example? How many seat post or stem clamps are over-torqued on carbon tubes just waiting to fail? How many people are riding around with cracks in frames?

There was a thread in another section of this forum just a few weeks ago where someone said they were wedging homemade shims cut out of Coke cans behind their SRAM hydro brake pads because the lever was bottoming out.
Scary!
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Old 06-15-22, 03:08 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
There was a thread in another section of this forum just a few weeks ago where someone said they were wedging homemade shims cut out of Coke cans behind their SRAM hydro brake pads because the lever was bottoming out.
This is the kind of daily stupid I see that makes my face hurt from frowning.
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Old 06-15-22, 03:43 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
I agree with this, but it's also worth noting that this concern isn't exclusive to rims/tires. There are a myriad of high end bike parts that are equally (or more) dangerous in the wrong hands.

How many carbon steerer tubes are out there with compression plugs that are not correctly installed, for example? How many seat post or stem clamps are over-torqued on carbon tubes just waiting to fail? How many people are riding around with cracks in frames?

There was a thread in another section of this forum just a few weeks ago where someone said they were wedging homemade shims cut out of Coke cans behind their SRAM hydro brake pads because the lever was bottoming out.
The thing is...these hookless rims are not garbage in circulation. They have been out there for a few years now and are proven to work on both road, mountain and fat bike.

IMO the only garbage in circulation in the world of bikes is the cheap chinese handlebars, seat posts and frames that anyone can buy from Ebay or Amazon. I'd be more worried about those parts in circulation vs. any hookless rims. Worse that happens with a hookless rim is that someone gets a flat that may or may not result in a crash. I've seen people get a flat on the front tire with a hooked rim which then causes a crash and the person ends up in the hospital.

Again...Hookless rims are not as scawy as some folks make them out to be.
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Old 06-15-22, 04:23 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post

IMO the only garbage in circulation in the world of bikes is the cheap chinese handlebars, seat posts and frames that anyone can buy from Ebay or Amazon. I'd be more worried about those parts in circulation vs. any hookless rims.
Yeah I find this scary too. Most people don't tend to appreciate the nuances of carbon layup and specification. They just presume carbon is carbon because it all looks much the same from the outside. I used to be involved with the design of carbon chassis (tubs) in motorsport and you could literally double the torsional stiffness by using a higher spec layup of the same weight. Carbon manufacture also requires strict quality control. The last thing I would want on my bike is a critical carbon component of unknown/dubious Chinese origin. But people seem quite blasé about it on bike forums.
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Old 06-15-22, 04:46 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
The thing is...these hookless rims are not garbage in circulation. They have been out there for a few years now and are proven to work on both road, mountain and fat bike.

IMO the only garbage in circulation in the world of bikes is the cheap chinese handlebars, seat posts and frames that anyone can buy from Ebay or Amazon. I'd be more worried about those parts in circulation vs. any hookless rims. Worse that happens with a hookless rim is that someone gets a flat that may or may not result in a crash. I've seen people get a flat on the front tire with a hooked rim which then causes a crash and the person ends up in the hospital.

Again...Hookless rims are not as scawy as some folks make them out to be.
As I said in my opening post, I've had a tire come off and jam in the seatstays. Going no more than 25 mph. Helmet, collarbone, ribs and an acre of road rash. Granted, the cause was completely unrelated to the thread, but ... I cannot get that out of my mind when I'm going 45+ mph downhill (and in Portland, there are lots of hills that fast or faster).

So, you words of "... Worse that happens with a hookless rim is that someone gets a flat that may or may not result in a crash." are hardly reassuring. I don't want to do yet another crash that sends me to the ER with multiple broken bones again in this lifetime. Your words here are the most compelling argument that I should never ride those hookless. (And am further convinced that the ancient technology sewups I am reverting to are the right answer for me.) Your words and that link you sent me to.
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Old 06-15-22, 05:07 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Holy crap, as a rim brake person (more because I like vintage frames than I give a rip about where the caliper is, it never occurred to me what hanging a bike upside down for a long time would do to the quality of hydraulic braking. Probably going to be a bunch of people crashing dusty, cobwebbed bikes and thinking this biking thing is bullspit and no wonder Dad hung this bike up there and hasn't used it in 20 years.
To be fair, even neglected rim brake bikes that I pick up on occasion don't stop either!
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Old 06-15-22, 05:09 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Yeah I find this scary too. Most people don't tend to appreciate the nuances of carbon layup and specification. They just presume carbon is carbon because it all looks much the same from the outside. I used to be involved with the design of carbon chassis (tubs) in motorsport and you could literally double the torsional stiffness by using a higher spec layup of the same weight. Carbon manufacture also requires strict quality control. The last thing I would want on my bike is a critical carbon component of unknown/dubious Chinese origin. But people seem quite blasé about it on bike forums.
Yup. my experience isn't with CF or modern epoxy resins. I used to build racing sailboats in the best of the old glass and polyester hand layups. The old stuff, yes, but the difference between what we did and low end mass production was radical. We built boats that were lighter and stronger with fiberglass work we did nothing to hide. No power tools between the initial gel coat spray and assembly after the boat left the glass shop. No sloppy work to grind off. And our work was not hidden later by interior panels, etc. We took pride in creating a boat where all the fiberglass had its strands pulled straight, the weaves even and natural, the edges straight and rolled down so clean we barely had to hand sand the edges.

CF on bike parts scares me. It is all done inside molds that are closed after layup and human eyes never see that layup again. It would be much easier for me to trust if I didn't know the difference between a worker's good day and his bad days. In my work, it was all open mold, so even on a bad day, I had to do work that my coworkers and bosses could see. But once the fork mold is closed for vacuum bagging and bake, nobody ever sees it. And my life is as much at stake when I ride a near 50 mph descent as those who sailed my work to Hawaii.
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Old 06-15-22, 05:37 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Yup. my experience isn't with CF or modern epoxy resins. I used to build racing sailboats in the best of the old glass and polyester hand layups. The old stuff, yes, but the difference between what we did and low end mass production was radical. We built boats that were lighter and stronger with fiberglass work we did nothing to hide. No power tools between the initial gel coat spray and assembly after the boat left the glass shop. No sloppy work to grind off. And our work was not hidden later by interior panels, etc. We took pride in creating a boat where all the fiberglass had its strands pulled straight, the weaves even and natural, the edges straight and rolled down so clean we barely had to hand sand the edges.

CF on bike parts scares me. It is all done inside molds that are closed after layup and human eyes never see that layup again. It would be much easier for me to trust if I didn't know the difference between a worker's good day and his bad days. In my work, it was all open mold, so even on a bad day, I had to do work that my coworkers and bosses could see. But once the fork mold is closed for vacuum bagging and bake, nobody ever sees it. And my life is as much at stake when I ride a near 50 mph descent as those who sailed my work to Hawaii.
Considering the billions of kilometers which have been safely ridden on carbon fibre bicycles you needn’t lose much sleep about CF safety at this point. However, you be you, and if you are more comfortable with legacy materials great. But with your heritage technology there are many risks as well, from rolling a tubular to forged aluminum parts catastrophically failing, both of which have happened to me in the distant past, realize that risk goes beyond perception. Over the years I have had a Teledyne Titan crack at the head tube, Dura-Ace solid forged crank arm fail, Regina freewheel literally explode, Super Record BB axle shear, numerous axles break, spokes break, seatposts seize, dozens of wheels come out of true, etc. the good old days were really not as good as everyone remembers.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 06-15-22 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 06-16-22, 03:52 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
Considering the billions of kilometers which have been safely ridden on carbon fibre bicycles you needn’t lose much sleep about CF safety at this point. However, you be you, and if you are more comfortable with legacy materials great. But with your heritage technology there are many risks as well, from rolling a tubular to forged aluminum parts catastrophically failing, both of which have happened to me in the distant past, realize that risk goes beyond perception. Over the years I have had a Teledyne Titan crack at the head tube, Dura-Ace solid forged crank arm fail, Regina freewheel literally explode, Super Record BB axle shear, numerous axles break, spokes break, seatposts seize, dozens of wheels come out of true, etc. the good old days were really not as good as everyone remembers.
I think you completely missed his point. It was all about buying your CF from a reputable source vs some random Chinese knock-off. He was using glass-fibre manufacture as an analogy - since it involves much the same processing and skill set as CF manufacture.
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Old 06-16-22, 07:43 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
As I said in my opening post, I've had a tire come off and jam in the seatstays. Going no more than 25 mph. Helmet, collarbone, ribs and an acre of road rash. Granted, the cause was completely unrelated to the thread, but ... I cannot get that out of my mind when I'm going 45+ mph downhill (and in Portland, there are lots of hills that fast or faster).

So, you words of "... Worse that happens with a hookless rim is that someone gets a flat that may or may not result in a crash." are hardly reassuring. I don't want to do yet another crash that sends me to the ER with multiple broken bones again in this lifetime. Your words here are the most compelling argument that I should never ride those hookless. (And am further convinced that the ancient technology sewups I am reverting to are the right answer for me.) Your words and that link you sent me to.
It is easy to be cavalier until you come off and hit something hard at a mere 20 mph. Laying there you see your humerus sticking out, bent, twisted and tangled. Having to undo the 90 degree break to untangle yourself and I guarantee people would think about tires coming off.

Funny......I came to the similar conclusion WRT sewups. I decided to go hooked tubeless but gave strong consideration to reverting back to tubies.
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Old 06-16-22, 09:35 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
One of the delights of reading the Talkbass forum is seeing guys who have picked up odds and ends of electronics knowledge picking fights with people with vastly greater experience. It's amazing how many people can't let it go and continue to argue in post after post after post with the guy who had designed the very amp under discussion, among many other industry standard units in the course of over 25 years in the audiophile and sound reinforcement fields.
I don't know how agedhorse puts up with it tbh.
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