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School me on Shimano hardware

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School me on Shimano hardware

Old 06-23-22, 11:56 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Thanks. That's the kind of thing I'm trying to figure out. Despite what some of the snobbish posters here are saying, I did go to the Shimano site first. And reading it, there is very little difference described between Sora, Claris and Tiagra. As pointed out, the biggest difference, or at least most notable, seems to be the number of speeds.

But I guess the real problem, at least for me, is that I rarely buy new. So that is a whole different issue when comparing Sora of 2010 to today's products (Oh! There's another one of those issues my betters didn't even consider!!! )
Yeah, so this is going to be complicated enough it may need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. When you are dealing with used, not only do you have to consider which "generation" groupset you have, but you will also have to consider how worn out the components are. Traditionally, the higher end groups would be more durable, but I question whether that matters much anymore.

That said, I am confident that today's Sora or Tiagra is going to be better than that of 5-10 years ago, as the newer developments at the higher end tend to trickle down.
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Old 06-23-22, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Yeah, so this is going to be complicated enough it may need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. When you are dealing with used, not only do you have to consider which "generation" groupset you have, but you will also have to consider how worn out the components are. Traditionally, the higher end groups would be more durable, but I question whether that matters much anymore.

That said, I am confident that today's Sora or Tiagra is going to be better than that of 5-10 years ago, as the newer developments at the higher end tend to trickle down.
Ya, I'm wondering about that too. Like I said, I have a couple bikes with Sora and Claris on them now, but they're older bikes. When I look those models up on the Shimano site, what comes up now doesn't look like the hardware on my bikes, which are about 10-15 years old. Yet another problem with trying to source information from the manufacturer's site. Their information on legacy components is much more limited.

And because I'm not an ass, I will admit I could have been a little more specific about older Shimano components. I'm going to go back now and edit my original post to reflect older components.
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Old 06-23-22, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Ya, I'm wondering about that too. Like I said, I have a couple bikes with Sora and Claris on them now, but they're older bikes. When I look those models up on the Shimano site, what comes up now doesn't look like the hardware on my bikes, which are about 10-15 years old. Yet another problem with trying to source information from the manufacturer's site. Their information on legacy components is much more limited.

And because I'm not an ass, I will admit I could have been a little more specific about older Shimano components. I'm going to go back now and edit my original post to reflect older components.
Shimano typically updates/changes their product line every 4 years, give or take a year. So your components are probably 2 generations old. If you want to replace them with the same exact items you may have to scour scambay for parts, which can be done but is a hassle. The newer ones are likely better anyway.
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Old 06-23-22, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
If you're going to be pedantic, you need to be correct; flounder is an intransitive verb in this form. seypat 's usage is just fine.
Sometimes I think he posts those kinds of corrections just for the halibut.
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Old 06-23-22, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Sometimes I think he posts those kinds of corrections just for the halibut.
He's the sole person who knows why.
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Old 06-23-22, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about, now would you? Part of the reason I make posts is because this is aninteractive forum. The sharing of knowledge and ideas. You think I'm the only one now or in the future that's going to have these questions?
Not just that, but I'm asking for personal experiences. Not just marketing schtick. Something a couple of posters here hasn't picked up on. (ya, ya, I know. Preposition. Get over it.)
It is an interactive forum. But for some things a google search is just easier.
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Old 06-23-22, 12:56 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Sometimes I think he posts those kinds of corrections just for the halibut.
Halibut for Humanity, that's on his menu.
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Old 06-23-22, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
It is an interactive forum. But for some things a google search is just easier.
School me on Google searches?
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Old 06-23-22, 01:13 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Can you school us (no pun intended) on Shimano fishing hardware?
Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Sounds like a good parody thread. Do it!

I double-dog dare you to!
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Old 06-23-22, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
[EDIT] For clarification, I'm referring both to NEW and OLDER generation components.
Take me to school.
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...-need-to-know/
(Posted earlier; easy to find.)

Shimano improves each line across generations. For example, the current 105 line is better than old/ancient lines. Shimano also moves features to lower lines (so the current Tiaga might be better than old 105).

105 is the "bottom" of the "better" lines. Outside of number of gears (and electronic shifting), there's there's not much of a benefit to picking a line higher than 105.

Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
[EDIT]...and then the other lever is really more like a knob that comes off the inside bracket by where the brake cable comes out. Not really a fan of that set up. I don't know. Maybe that's more of an age issue rather than model.
If you don't like how the lever works, it seems like you shouldn't be much interested in it. It might have been done that way to save some manufacturing costs.

Last edited by njkayaker; 06-23-22 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 06-23-22, 03:08 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Sometimes I think he posts those kinds of corrections just for the halibut.
Yeah, he’s just trolling.
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Old 06-23-22, 04:20 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
The live version on “The Name of This Band is Talking Heads” is far superior. Listen starting at 1:07:25. Steve Scales’ percussion is off the hook.

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Old 06-23-22, 04:54 PM
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Use Sora for a while and you'll notice a difference. But to notice a difference you must also use or have used past tense 105 Ult or DA.

105 Ult or DA are also much more reliable mechanically and less prone to breaking down while you're out on the road.

Number of speeds isn't really the differentiator.




Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Excellent link! Thank you very much. This is pretty much what I was asking.

Not my experience.

I don't know. I haven't noticed a functional difference between the bikes I have that have Sora versus the ones that have 105, so I assume the difference is either weight or number of gears. Is that about right? As said above, I like the kind that has both up and down levers together, but I don't know if that's a specific model or maybe a generation of components.

Ya. Thanks.

So based on just a cursory review of this link, the difference between Sora, Tiagra and Claris is the number of speeds? Is that correct?
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Old 06-23-22, 06:04 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Oh, God! You were a teacher??? That explains a lot.
I was a college professor...So, not exactly a 'teacher,' but plenty of teaching.

What precisely does it explain? I'm genuinely curious.
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Old 06-23-22, 10:44 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Shimano typically updates/changes their product line every 4 years, give or take a year. So your components are probably 2 generations old. If you want to replace them with the same exact items you may have to scour scambay for parts, which can be done but is a hassle. The newer ones are likely better anyway.
See, I didn't know that, and surprise, surprise, but Shimano doesn't really describe their update procedure on the website. From what I saw on the website, the "trickle down" technology has made its way to the Sora and Tiagra components. In the newer generations, at least looking on the Shimano site, both up and down levers are nested together. In my older models, there's the one that's part of the brake handle, but the other is like a small knob on the inside of the hood. And that's really the reason I started the thread. Going on the website, I couldn't find components that looked like mine. I did not know they would actually change the function of the models. I was expecting the new Sora, Tiagra and Claris to operate like my old generations. So that's some of the confusion there.

I have no loyalty to the older generation, especially with the knob type shifter thingy. In fact, I don't much care for it and I'm constantly shopping CL for cheap old bikes I can rob for parts. I did that recently with a Scott I picked up. Swapped the shifters between the Scott and one of my Trek WSDs.
Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
It is an interactive forum. But for some things a google search is just easier.
Absolutely hate those commie bastards. Will not use google for anything.
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...-need-to-know/
(Posted earlier; easy to find.)

Shimano improves each line across generations. For example, the current 105 line is better than old/ancient lines. Shimano also moves features to lower lines (so the current Tiaga might be better than old 105).

105 is the "bottom" of the "better" lines. Outside of number of gears (and electronic shifting), there's there's not much of a benefit to picking a line higher than 105.


If you don't like how the lever works, it seems like you shouldn't be much interested in it. It might have been done that way to save some manufacturing costs.
Ya, most manufacturing decisions are based on a cost/sales ratio. Nice to know even the newer "budget" components are better designed and manufactured. Hopefully, in the next year or two I might be in the market for a newer upgrade with better components.
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I was a college professor...So, not exactly a 'teacher,' but plenty of teaching.

What precisely does it explain? I'm genuinely curious.
You just explained it yourself. Now let's see if you get it.
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Old 06-24-22, 04:04 AM
  #66  
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Something that hasn't been mentioned. You must match the shifters with the RD and chainrings. At least for number of speeds. That's not even in stone either. Some Shimano will not work with other Shimano. It gets complicated.
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Old 06-24-22, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I was a college professor...So, not exactly a 'teacher,' but plenty of teaching.

What precisely does it explain? I'm genuinely curious.
Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
You just explained it yourself. Now let's see if you get it.
In other words, you don’t have an answer to the question.
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Old 06-24-22, 07:12 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
School me on Google searches?
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Shima...pset+Hierarchy
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Old 06-24-22, 12:14 PM
  #69  
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Steel is real

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Old 06-25-22, 12:01 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Something that hasn't been mentioned. You must match the shifters with the RD and chainrings. At least for number of speeds. That's not even in stone either. Some Shimano will not work with other Shimano. It gets complicated.
Ya, that's something I struggle with. How to know how many gears a shifter is designed for. I have seen advertisements for 8, 9, 10 and as many as 11 speeds. I have to assume that's just the rear cassette. I haven't gone that in depth with playing with my bikes yet so I don't really know how all that works. Can you just swap out different number of speeds depending on what you're doing? I mean, I assume that it does have to match your shifter. But I'm just saying if, for instance, you do a lot of hills and you want more options, you just swap (as an example) an 8 speed cassette and shifter for 10 speed? Easy peasy?

I spend a lot of years working in the engineering field, so I'm pretty mechanical. I'm not afraid to do my own work. But bikes are still a new platform for me. Learning a lot, fast.
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
In other words, you don’t have an answer to the question.
Of course I do. The question is, are you too smart to figure out what I said?
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Old 06-25-22, 01:43 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Ya, that's something I struggle with. How to know how many gears a shifter is designed for. I have seen advertisements for 8, 9, 10 and as many as 11 speeds. I have to assume that's just the rear cassette. I haven't gone that in depth with playing with my bikes yet so I don't really know how all that works. Can you just swap out different number of speeds depending on what you're doing? I mean, I assume that it does have to match your shifter. But I'm just saying if, for instance, you do a lot of hills and you want more options, you just swap (as an example) an 8 speed cassette and shifter for 10 speed? Easy peasy?

I spend a lot of years working in the engineering field, so I'm pretty mechanical. I'm not afraid to do my own work. But bikes are still a new platform for me. Learning a lot, fast.
This is an utter mess.

No, it’s not “easy peasy”. Somebody who “spent a lot of year in the engineering field” wouldn’t even think that about something that is “a new platform” for them.

It doesn’t seem you have any idea how index shifting works.

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Old 06-25-22, 02:14 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Do you just come in to threads and post in an attempt to make yourself feel better by trying to run others down? I've run into people like you before. You're what is often referred to as "toxic". Please feel free to not contribute in my threads. Believe it or not, you're already there.
This is a “you” problem that you are blaming other people for.

It is, in fact, easy to search for the basic ranking of different Shimano lines.

It looks like you went to Shimano’s site and gave up after being confused there (the Shimano site is kind of confusing for the info you were looking for).

Since you ask the question with zero apparent understanding, it seems you didn’t really but much effort into searching (again, it’s easy to find).

People are going to interpret the “school me” stuff as “I have a complicated / open-ended question that I’m too lazy to put real effort into researching. I want you to do that work.” It’s a phrase people should avoid using.

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Old 06-25-22, 09:39 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Ya, that's something I struggle with. How to know how many gears a shifter is designed for. I have seen advertisements for 8, 9, 10 and as many as 11 speeds. I have to assume that's just the rear cassette. I haven't gone that in depth with playing with my bikes yet so I don't really know how all that works. Can you just swap out different number of speeds depending on what you're doing? I mean, I assume that it does have to match your shifter. But I'm just saying if, for instance, you do a lot of hills and you want more options, you just swap (as an example) an 8 speed cassette and shifter for 10 speed? Easy peasy?

I spend a lot of years working in the engineering field, so I'm pretty mechanical. I'm not afraid to do my own work. But bikes are still a new platform for me. Learning a lot, fast.

Of course I do. The question is, are you too smart to figure out what I said?
Typical 'engineer'. As a mechanic hearing someone say "I'm an engineer..." makes my skin crawl. I always want to reply with "Really? How cool is it driving the train?"
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Old 06-25-22, 11:10 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Ya, that's something I struggle with. How to know how many gears a shifter is designed for. I have seen advertisements for 8, 9, 10 and as many as 11 speeds. I have to assume that's just the rear cassette. I haven't gone that in depth with playing with my bikes yet so I don't really know how all that works. Can you just swap out different number of speeds depending on what you're doing? I mean, I assume that it does have to match your shifter. But I'm just saying if, for instance, you do a lot of hills and you want more options, you just swap (as an example) an 8 speed cassette and shifter for 10 speed? Easy peasy?

I spend a lot of years working in the engineering field, so I'm pretty mechanical. I'm not afraid to do my own work. But bikes are still a new platform for me. Learning a lot, fast.
Maybe you should have started off with a more specific question regarding matching drivetrain component speeds?

Most here (who also frequent the Bicycle Mechanics) subforum have a working understanding of indexed shifting -- the general concept is not rocket surgery; no offense to any component engineer or mechanic here -- but of course there are subtle nuances (e.g., mixing components across different Shimano generations and/or groups, matching cable pull ratios, freehub width, etc.) that only certain members (e.g., cxwrench ) have readily at their command. Generally, at least in my experience, most of these members have freely offered their expert advice in response to specific questions.

Assuming you really (1) have years of experience in the engineering field (IMHO, the "the" should really be replaced by an "an", both semantically and to reflect how most engineers would regard their respective expertise), (2) have some mechanical aptitude, and (3) are not afraid to do your own work, could you not have made more progress toward articulating one or more specific questions about what you had hoped to do with your bikes or by upgrading / swapping their components? The fact that you did not bother to do so, and instead posed a broad, open-ended, and rambling series of "questions" while requesting an entire body of "real world knowledge and experience", has been interpreted by some as laziness.

Yes, this is an interactive forum, and interaction involves give and take.
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Old 06-25-22, 12:45 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
Most here (who also frequent the Bicycle Mechanics) subforum have a working understanding of indexed shifting -- the general concept is not rocket surgery; no offense to any component engineer or mechanic here -- but of course there are subtle nuances (e.g., mixing components across different Shimano generations and/or groups, matching cable pull ratios, freehub width, etc.) that only certain members (e.g., cxwrench ) have readily at their command. Generally, at least in my experience, most of these members have freely offered their expert advice in response to specific questions.
Writing about the "subtle nuances" is going to be some work but she doesn't have the basic knowledge (*) to use it. She probably isn't really asking for this information (*) So, it would be wasted effort to provide it. At this point (maybe, any point), she should avoid the issues of "nuance" and keep things simple.

* She thinks it might be "easy peasy" to swap 8 and 10 speed cassettes.

Last edited by njkayaker; 06-25-22 at 12:51 PM.
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