Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Rider weight and windy days

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Rider weight and windy days

Old 08-02-22, 05:48 AM
  #51  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,366
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2515 Post(s)
Liked 1,565 Times in 1,012 Posts
It must be time for a pop quiz.
seypat is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 05:48 AM
  #52  
AlgarveCycling
Full Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Sure, everything depends on the particular case. However, ceterus peribus, ( google,it if you need to) bigger riders produce more power to surface volume, than smaller riders. Obviously there our outliers, but most of 100 years of racing history shows that relatively large guys do better sprinting and flat TTS and smaller guys climb better.

Also, if you want me read your entire post, work on the editing and presentation, not meant people have the patience for block text these days.

Again, we aren't a million miles apart, you're just being lazy and not wanting to read.


AlgarveCycling is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 09:22 AM
  #53  
AlgarveCycling
Full Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Its me he thinks he could beat on a flat windy course, but im not worried. He says larger riders often beat him up a hill and he often beats those same guys on flats which doesn't really make a lot of sense. Maybe he's a terrible climber but super aero or something? I could see it, im a stronger climber and weaker on the flats than my build would suggest but not to the point where im actually better on the climbs
Perspective, Larry. When I say I am rubbish at climbing it doesn't mean I get dropped on climbs by everyone. It just isn't where my strengths are. I'm a flat road, crit-type rider but pretty good at short punchy climbs too.

I've done top 10 at National Champs, won Regional Champs, Club Champs and Cat 1 races in my time and currently get top 3 at local MTB XC races.

I train with Pro's fairly often and can include Quick-Step, Human Powered Health and Lotto-Soudal riders. I trained with the Dutch winner of the American Unbound 200 gravel race earlier this year - beat him in a few sprints (albeit he could easily drop me in anything but that). My Palmares are not nearly as good as many here, I suspect, but not bad either. I've some experience.

I'm a 'terrible' climber compared to very good climbers on longer climbs at my level. My level is very different to yours. You don't race nor train 300mi/week and you are overweight from what you are posting; I'm not, I'm in very good shape. Everything is relative. I still drop most cyclists I come across on flat, climbs - whatever.

I'm merely relaying to you my own experience at a level you have not achieved yet - to put things into perspective. You can see what I'm telling you is true simply by comparing Pro's to each other; I've given you some names to start the comparison with and you will see at their higher level my experiences at my level are similar.


AlgarveCycling is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 09:32 AM
  #54  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 12,679

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 296 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 1,523 Times in 919 Posts
In the past opening a thread BF / reading posts could be pretty funny. For some reason, when I opened this one and saw sup guys and chatting with a girl, I broke out laughing. Thanks for that.

I expect you were riding on / talking about Canada Road. Since I lived close to Canada Road and the TT course, I rode it a lot. Many times my wife and I would put the bikes in the car and drive to Edgewood and Canada to start the ride to go south and miss the wind. Most off Silicon Valley heading south is not that windy.

My wife and I have a lot of racing experience with light versus heavier riders in time trials since she is 106 pounds and I am 170.

In the real world of NorCal racing on the various TT courses, the wind is not constant but variable and gusty at times. For example, on Canada there is a section after the TT turn around where one is going downhill and is somewhat protected and then hit a cross wind. That wind can blow a light rider out of the bike lane into traffic if it is strong enough.

The first rule of heavy versus light riders i.e. men V women, is that light women have to be very careful in gusty cross winds. And may have to take a pass on racing if the wind is high enough.

Heavy riders carry a lot of momentum and frictional force between the road and the tires. When hit by a gust of wind they are less affected and do not slow down as much. When hit by a gust or variable wind, many riders let up on the power as a reaction to movement of the bike. In a TT, on a TT bike with wind and a deeper section front wheel, it is important to keep the power on and lean into the wind and not lose speed. My wife is excellent at this as long as physics do not take over and blow her sideways.

We show up at road time trials with several sets of racing wheels for the express purpose of selecting different wheels if the wind is a problem. A deep section front wheel is more difficult to control in the wind for both heavy and light riders but the advantage may go to a heavier rider. Although, after a time trial, I would experience a lot of bike movement due to wind and my wife would say it was not a problem.

IMO, the ability to ride fast in the wind is a skill that influences speed as well as W/kg and W/CdA.

Raw power coupled with skill may be an advantage as long at one can keep that raw power going and the position on the bike is not awful. And the momentum increase due to added weight may be an advantage in some wind and terrain conditions. What I have seen in practice is that longer time trials where there is a significant head wind section favor riders with low CdA. Raw power may be fleeting where CdA is constant over time.

For a larger rider with more raw power IMO, it is about horses for courses. On the right length course with wind, weight and power can be an advantage. Think one day Euro classic races won by bigger UCI world tour pro riders.

Last edited by Hermes; 08-02-22 at 10:19 AM.
Hermes is offline  
Likes For Hermes:
Old 08-02-22, 09:35 AM
  #55  
LarrySellerz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,240
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1647 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 200 Posts
Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
Perspective, Larry. When I say I am rubbish at climbing it doesn't mean I get dropped on climbs by everyone. It just isn't where my strengths are. I'm a flat road, crit-type rider but pretty good at short punchy climbs too.

I've done top 10 at National Champs, won Regional Champs, Club Champs and Cat 1 races in my time and currently get top 3 at local MTB XC races.

I train with Pro's fairly often and can include Quick-Step, Human Powered Health and Lotto-Soudal riders. I trained with the Dutch winner of the American Unbound 200 gravel race earlier this year - beat him in a few sprints (albeit he could easily drop me in anything but that). My Palmares are not nearly as good as many here, I suspect, but not bad either. I've some experience.

I'm a 'terrible' climber compared to very good climbers on longer climbs at my level. My level is very different to yours. You don't race nor train 300mi/week and you are overweight from what you are posting; I'm not, I'm in very good shape. Everything is relative. I still drop most cyclists I come across on flat, climbs - whatever.

I'm merely relaying to you my own experience at a level you have not achieved yet - to put things into perspective. You can see what I'm telling you is true simply by comparing Pro's to each other; I've given you some names to start the comparison with and you will see at their higher level my experiences at my level are similar.


Thats surprising that you as a 141 lb dude are most confidant on the flats and punchy climbs, maybe because you're smaller you fare better with multiple accelerations rather than a larger diesel type? I don't want to argue with you about who is faster I just find it interesting based on your body type the conditions you are most confidant on, I would have guessed youd be strongest on like a 3 mile hill or something along those lines.

Last edited by LarrySellerz; 08-02-22 at 09:57 AM.
LarrySellerz is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 09:54 AM
  #56  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,027
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17999 Post(s)
Liked 9,824 Times in 5,570 Posts
Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
For example, W/kg works for all types of riders, not just light ones - don't assume it is only the lighter mountain goats who need to concern themselves with it. Big units can have mountain-goat catching W/kg too! Absolute power/power-to-weight/W/kg/W/CDa...you need it all.
Notice the goat catcher in teal in the second image. That's me.




Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 08-02-22, 10:23 AM
  #57  
AlgarveCycling
Full Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Thats surprising that you as a 141 lb dude are most confidant on the flats and punchy climbs, maybe because you're smaller you fare better with multiple accelerations rather than a larger diesel type? I don't want to argue with you about who is faster but I cycle a lot too, 300 mile weeks are not uncommon, I ride with cat 1s and former pros all the time, used to cycle delivering food for a living, dont own a car etc etc. I just find it interesting based on your body type the conditions you are most confidant on, I would have guessed youd be strongest on like a 3 mile hill or something along those lines.
I'm not a diesel, far from it. But I can do breakaways providing they aren't long, so 10mi out or something at most. It is true also that I can do multiple accelerations.

Here's 3 of my 300+ Strava KOM's. You can see I'm ok on the flat/sprints - none of these 3 examples is a long climb, all very short stuff and I'm only showing speed/time and blanked my name since I'm fussy who I am friends with on Strava.






You can show us some of yours now so we get an idea of what you typically do with Pro's in the mix.


AlgarveCycling is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 12:11 PM
  #58  
LarrySellerz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,240
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1647 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 200 Posts
not interested in a dick measuring contest
LarrySellerz is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 12:30 PM
  #59  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 11,807

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6534 Post(s)
Liked 6,878 Times in 3,522 Posts
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Thats surprising that you as a 141 lb dude are most confidant on the flats and punchy climbs, maybe because you're smaller you fare better with multiple accelerations rather than a larger diesel type? I don't want to argue with you about who is faster I just find it interesting based on your body type the conditions you are most confidant on, I would have guessed youd be strongest on like a 3 mile hill or something along those lines.
You're overgeneralizing about things where there's considerable overlap. You shouldn't assume that because someone is smaller and lighter than you that they won't crush you on the flats, or that they will crush you on a climb. Sure smaller riders TEND TO BE better at climbing, and bigger riders TEND TO BE better on the flats. But that doesn't mean no big riders can climb or that no smaller rider can time trial.

__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 08-03-22, 12:02 AM
  #60  
LarrySellerz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,240
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1647 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 200 Posts
Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
What's figjaming?

Really don't know what your beef is, so do please explain? Too much alcohol, perhaps?

I can back up everything I've posted - happy for Hermes or someone of that stature here to join my Strava to verify my rides, if that is what you mean.


if your 10 second power is really just 1k watts then you have some serious training to do if you want to hang with the big boys on flat windy roads. IDK how strong you guys are in Portugal but that isn't enough power to hang with the California squads

Last edited by LarrySellerz; 08-03-22 at 12:07 AM.
LarrySellerz is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 03:58 AM
  #61  
AlgarveCycling
Full Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
if your 10 second power is really just 1k watts then you have some serious training to do if you want to hang with the big boys on flat windy roads. IDK how strong you guys are in Portugal but that isn't enough power to hang with the California squads


You've learnt nothing. Stay ignorant if that's what you want.


AlgarveCycling is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 07:35 AM
  #62  
LarrySellerz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,240
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1647 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 200 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
You're overgeneralizing about things where there's considerable overlap. You shouldn't assume that because someone is smaller and lighter than you that they won't crush you on the flats, or that they will crush you on a climb. Sure smaller riders TEND TO BE better at climbing, and bigger riders TEND TO BE better on the flats. But that doesn't mean no big riders can climb or that no smaller rider can time trial.

I meant it as relative, like if I can keep up with a small person on climbs they should watch out on the flats and vice versa. In real world this means someone can hide in my draft on flats and dominate on the climbs, and to avoid that I either try to ride them off my wheel or hold some juice for the hill.
LarrySellerz is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 11:16 AM
  #63  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,518

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3412 Post(s)
Liked 1,381 Times in 1,010 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Notice the goat catcher in teal in the second image. That's me.




On your 1-day through the Enchantments? Such nice goats, sweet photos.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 11:28 AM
  #64  
Bah Humbug
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 18,513

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7643 Post(s)
Liked 2,645 Times in 1,390 Posts
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
not interested in a dick measuring contest
That's not your tune when you're talking about "embarrassing lycra-clad roadies".
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 11:28 AM
  #65  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,518

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3412 Post(s)
Liked 1,381 Times in 1,010 Posts
It's really just one sentence. Well, four as it turns out. Or 5 and now it's 8? First: light riders, IME especially female light riders, have trouble in crosswinds. In headwinds, not so much. I was in a long paceline once and the guy behind me asked, "Who on earth is up there pulling at a steady 25?" Me: "a 116 lb. woman." She was a good friend.
Never ask a woman her weight. Betrays your own lack of experience not to mention good sense.

Cor, but that got out of hand . . .
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 08-09-22, 04:17 AM
  #66  
The_woo
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
That's the thing, it isn't nearly as unusual as you might think, I see smaller riders performing to the opposite of what is trying to be taken as granted in this thread and vice versa. It's more down to pure genetics than something like bike fit and even training. It simply is not the case that larger riders will always be better than smaller riders on the flat and vice versa.
"All else being equal" is the part that half the people in this thread are missing.

People don't gain watts for every extra lb they weigh, and there are obviously huge variations in power and endurance for different riders at any weight. There's a reason why the heaviest riders in the world tour are still only ~75Kg. None of this scales indefinitely either, and there are hard limits on how much oxygen and food anyone can process no matter how big they are.
The_woo is offline  
Old 08-09-22, 04:53 AM
  #67  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,843
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked 1,381 Times in 874 Posts
Wait?

Light, petite riders are affected more by gusty crosswinds than big, heavy riders?

Is that why I can use 60mm deep dish rims anywhere, anytime?


Amazing what I learn here.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 08-09-22, 01:25 PM
  #68  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 11,807

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6534 Post(s)
Liked 6,878 Times in 3,522 Posts
Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
"All else being equal" is the part that half the people in this thread are missing.

People don't gain watts for every extra lb they weigh, and there are obviously huge variations in power and endurance for different riders at any weight. There's a reason why the heaviest riders in the world tour are still only ~75Kg. None of this scales indefinitely either, and there are hard limits on how much oxygen and food anyone can process no matter how big they are.
Guess I better leave those donuts in the break room alone, then.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 08-09-22, 08:03 PM
  #69  
Broctoon
Super-duper Genius
 
Broctoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Muskrat Springs, Utah
Posts: 1,248
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Liked 520 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I was in a long paceline once and the guy behind me asked, "Who on earth is up there pulling at a steady 25?" Me: "a 116 lb. woman."
On my favorite weekly group ride, there is one female who consistently shows up. She's short-ish (like about 5' 4"). Not really petite, but certainly not thick. Kind of muscular and well proportioned. She can really mash! She rides about a 48cm Orbea frame and can get really low on it. Wheels are some of those cheap Chinese carbon. Superteam, I think. They're like 60 or maybe 80mm profile, so that's gotta be helping her aero as well. If she gets blown around in windy conditions, I've never noticed it, and I've not heard her complain either.

When riding right behind her, I'll watch her habits, and I'm pretty impressed with the force she puts out. I was going to say power, but that's not the key metric, because a given power can come from high force at low cadence or much lower force at faster cadence. This lady picks a gear ratio one or two steps higher than I'd choose and then just grinds away seemingly effortlessly, doing maybe 60 rpm, tops. No drama, no shifting weight or even appearing to breathe hard. Just pulls like a freight train.

And she's not a really fast sprinter. Every once a while a few members of the group will break away into a short, full-blown sprint, just for fun. She can usually hang for a few seconds, but then will often get passed. I have an unimpressive FTP around 180 or so, and I can't keep up with this lady if she decides to plow ahead at 25mph... but I can pour on the coals for 15 or 20 seconds and leave her.

Last edited by Broctoon; 08-09-22 at 10:08 PM.
Broctoon is offline  
Likes For Broctoon:
Old 08-09-22, 09:30 PM
  #70  
koala logs
Banned.
 
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 674
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked 166 Times in 136 Posts
Originally Posted by Broctoon View Post
She rides about a 48cm Orbea frame and can get really low on it.
That's the key. Get low. I'm only 125 lbs on a 50 cm frame, slammed stem setup so I can get real low.

I don't get blown around any worse than much heavier riders.
koala logs is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.