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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

Old 12-18-22, 08:43 AM
  #626  
Hiro11
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
There's the issue...you're massively OCD. It's a bike chain. It's a wear component. It's meant to be ridden. Put some lube on it, wipe it off, and ride your bike. Jesus, it's just not that important. It literally takes me less than 10 seconds to back pedal the crank while dripping lube on the chain. Another 5-10 seconds of pedaling to spread the lube, then 5 more seconds to wipe off the excess. Any more time than that and you're seriously overthinking the whole deal.
After one season of immersion waxing chains on several bikes, this is the exact conclusion I came to.
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Old 12-18-22, 10:15 AM
  #627  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I reuse the link up to 5, maybe 6 times. I have a link that I use for setup only that's been used at least a dozen times. IRD makes a 5 time reusable link. KMC has one that they say is not reusable. I have two, but haven't used one yet. I suspect it will work many times. Just don't use a link beyond one chain's life. I take chains off about every 600 miles for cleaning, but I also have 10 chains being used in a rotation, so a new link for each of two bikes every year is a good idea.
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Old 12-18-22, 11:03 AM
  #628  
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Originally Posted by Lombard
Really? Nobody in this thread had been able to claim their hox wax backs this "wealth of evidence". All I get is links to a bunch of charts from tests done by Molten Speedwax.
​​​​​​.
I thought these were the tests generally referred to, which aren't MSP's. I don't bother with hot wax either, but I do think there's some minor advantage to doing so if you really want to bother.
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/w...vember-22.xlsx
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Old 12-18-22, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombard
I don't do solvent cleanings nor ultrasonic baths. As I stated twice before in this thread, my chain goes on my bike when new and doesn't come off the bike until it's time to replace it..
My solvent and ultrasonic baths comment was meant to be directed towards other wax users, sorry for not specifying. I'm still of the opinion that wax can be done lightly. If one prefers a clean drivetrain, and lives in a dry climate, it can be the path of least resistance.
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Old 12-18-22, 12:08 PM
  #630  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
There's the issue...you're massively OCD.
You got me there.
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Old 12-18-22, 12:08 PM
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I tried the MSW protocol last time, and it was too much work for my taste. Previously, I soaked overnight in degreaser to remove packing grease, and did nothing between paraffin baths, Light, easy, clean, no big deal. It's pretty easy to remove and re-install a chain tbh
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Old 12-18-22, 03:41 PM
  #632  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
Three bikes being used in the rotation. It was only two. Not sure if they'll all get equal mileage.
Someone has to ask about chain management. They are all draped over a long bolt. Newly cleaned and lubed chain goes in the back, next to be used comes off the front. Real simple.
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Old 12-18-22, 04:07 PM
  #633  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I thought these were the tests generally referred to, which aren't MSP's. I don't bother with hot wax either, but I do think there's some minor advantage to doing so if you really want to bother.
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/w...vember-22.xlsx
I checked out Zero Friction's website. They sell lots of expensive stuff nobody really needs. Nuff said.
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Old 12-18-22, 04:09 PM
  #634  
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Originally Posted by Lombard
Nuff said.
Not quite. If you really checked them out, you'd know the selling came after the testing, and for the most part, what they sell is manufactured by others.

Last edited by asgelle; 12-18-22 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 12-18-22, 04:28 PM
  #635  
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Originally Posted by Lombard
This has to be a joke. The cheapest kit costs more than 2 brand new chains.

Not to mention I don't think even the hot wax cult members are going to disassemble their chains like that.
Obviously it's a joke. Sheldon had some funny ones.
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Old 12-18-22, 04:47 PM
  #636  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
There's the issue...you're massively OCD. It's a bike chain.
I've ridden with some of them. One guy, a decent rider, not fast but good bike handler, was obsessed with his bike. It was always spotless, perfect. One time we did a long ride through the mountains and there was a water crossing, maybe an inch or 2 deep and 30 or 40 feet wide. We all rode through except that guy, who took his shoes and socks off and walked across. We were all surprised.

Another guy I rode with was a pretty fast cat 3 on the road and cat 2 on the track. Also rode off road on his road bike, which looked like crap most of the time. Mud could be caked on, road grime, whatever. He didn't care.

I think many of us are somewhere in the middle. I clean my bikes sometimes but if there is wet weather I don't bother. It's a tool, not a jewel.
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Old 12-18-22, 05:08 PM
  #637  
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Originally Posted by big john
I've ridden with some of them. One guy, a decent rider, not fast but good bike handler, was obsessed with his bike. It was always spotless, perfect. One time we did a long ride through the mountains and there was a water crossing, maybe an inch or 2 deep and 30 or 40 feet wide. We all rode through except that guy, who took his shoes and socks off and walked across. We were all surprised.

Another guy I rode with was a pretty fast cat 3 on the road and cat 2 on the track. Also rode off road on his road bike, which looked like crap most of the time. Mud could be caked on, road grime, whatever. He didn't care.

I think many of us are somewhere in the middle. I clean my bikes sometimes but if there is wet weather I don't bother. It's a tool, not a jewel.
I used to know a woman who would always give her bike a thorough wipe down with baby wipes after club rides. Talk about OCD.

And then there was the guy who lubed his bike with WD-40. He would just spray it on the chain and he never wiped the excess off either. Needless to say, his drivetrain was always horribly filthy.
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Old 12-18-22, 06:28 PM
  #638  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Three bikes being used in the rotation. It was only two. Not sure if they'll all get equal mileage.
Someone has to ask about chain management. They are all draped over a long bolt. Newly cleaned and lubed chain goes in the back, next to be used comes off the front. Real simple.
And all of these bikes sharing chains work with the same chain length?
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Old 12-18-22, 06:38 PM
  #639  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
And all of these bikes sharing chains work with the same chain length?
Yes. I can use a 10-33 or 10-36 cassette with a 55 inch chain that's long enough to wrap the big/big. It would work with a 10-28 too. Only the B gap needs to be corrected for each cassette.

​​​​​All three of my bikes have 415mm chain stays and 46/30 cranks.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 12-19-22 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 12-18-22, 07:41 PM
  #640  
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Originally Posted by Lombard
I used to know a woman who would always give her bike a thorough wipe down with baby wipes after club rides. Talk about OCD.

And then there was the guy who lubed his bike with WD-40. He would just spray it on the chain and he never wiped the excess off either. Needless to say, his drivetrain was always horribly filthy.
I knew another guy who was so obsessed with his bike he insisted on stopping at a coin car wash after the club ride he was on rode through some mud that had flowed onto the road. I was riding alongside him one day and I ran over a ketchup packet and some of it squirted on his bike. If looks could kill.....
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Old 12-18-22, 09:39 PM
  #641  
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Originally Posted by Lombard
I checked out Zero Friction's website. They sell lots of expensive stuff nobody really needs. Nuff said.
Funny. I was on their website today too. There is much to be said in the chain testing data file. Particularly concerning the different types of chain wear, the types of chain wear measured by different checkers & the accuracy potential. Not to mention the detailed write up on chain construction. It's worth the read.

The test methods are clear, easily understood & the results appear robust.

The cost to go 10,000km has all the expected reservations & caveats you would expect for a data model to retain credibility.

Yep. They sell wax. They sell chains. They do testing and stock products based on the test results. Others don't do testing & sell whatever...What would you have the guy do? Spend all kinds of money, time, resources to test all the things & sell the worst performing? To sell a random assortment of randomness the distributor sends like everyone else?

Read the data files. It's all pretty transparent. Even the bit about Squirt & others were the flag note concerning initial penetration & proper application confound the results. He's right. The problem is the application method. The test procedure treats it like a wet lube.

I like that I have yet to wear out a Squirt waxed Ultegra/XTR chain other than the one that would very squarely fit in the block 6 of the testing regimen...& even then, my experience was consistent. He states it would've been 17 chains to go 10,000k. Or more plainly 588k to a chain. That's 365 miles. I got 500 miles out of mine (with proper initial penetration) & it measured 120% worn by the time I finished the trip.

My oil based chain results conform to his models reasonably well, too.

Anecdote of 1? Ok. But, anecdote of one repeated many times?

Aside from the sunk time cost of initial cleaning what's there to lose? Pride? $250 cassettes & $200 chainrings get expensive when your not getting 15,000-20,000 miles out of either.

I look forward to my Molten Speed Wax/Wipperman 11sx experiments. The Australian has yet to be proven wrong.
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Old 12-19-22, 11:43 AM
  #642  
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Originally Posted by base2
Aside from the sunk time cost of initial cleaning what's there to lose? Pride? $250 cassettes & $200 chainrings get expensive when your not getting 15,000-20,000 miles out of either.
For many people, time is a valuable commodity. Spending time to squeeze more miles out of a disposable component doesn't always make sense.
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Old 12-19-22, 12:01 PM
  #643  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
For many people, time is a valuable commodity. Spending time to squeeze more miles out of a disposable component doesn't always make sense.
Iím middling at best at bicycle mechanics and my total time waxing chains is approximately 10 minutes every two weeks. I donít get the time sink argument.
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Old 12-19-22, 12:48 PM
  #644  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
Iím middling at best at bicycle mechanics and my total time waxing chains is approximately 10 minutes every two weeks. I donít get the time sink argument.
Do some math. How much does a chain cost and how long does it last? How much does waxing extend the life of a chain? Finally, how much is your time worth? For many people, that last factor means it's not worth it to them to wax.
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Old 12-19-22, 01:26 PM
  #645  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Do some math. How much does a chain cost and how long does it last? How much does waxing extend the life of a chain? Finally, how much is your time worth? For many people, that last factor means it's not worth it to them to wax.
My time is worth quite a bit, but I choose to have a clean drivetrain with negligible effort. Turning on a crockpot at 10:30, pulling chains out of wax at 12:00 eating lunch for 10 minutes, breaking links free and reinstalling the chain take 5 minutes. Far faster than cleaning off a gunky drivetrain and re-applying lube every 75-100 miles.

To each their own. I just meant itís not the super-time consuming process itís being made out to be.
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Old 12-19-22, 01:30 PM
  #646  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Do some math. How much does a chain cost and how long does it last? How much does waxing extend the life of a chain? Finally, how much is your time worth? For many people, that last factor means it's not worth it to them to wax.
I just checked. A 105 11-speed chain costs $25 and a 105 11-speed cassette costs $57. Let's do the math. My current 50/50 oil/mineral spirits homebrew lube every 500 miles gets me at least 8K miles, but more like 10K miles out of a chain. Let's just say for argument's sake that a cassette needs to be replaced every second chain replacement (although I've never worn out a cassette). And for simplicity, since I ride about 3000 miles per year, let's say I get about 9000 miles out of a chain. So that turns out to be $25 at the 3 year mark and then $82 at the 6 year mark.

The cheapest crockpot costs about the same as a bicycle chain - $25. One pound of Molten Speedwax costs another $25. And how many uses can you get out of a pot of hot wax before you need to replace it? Plus all that extra time spent.

And again, none of you here in the hot wax cult have yet responded with how many miles you get from your hot waxed chains. NONE OF YOU.

As we used to say, it sounds like you're all head and no shaft.

Last edited by Lombard; 12-19-22 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 12-19-22, 01:34 PM
  #647  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
My time is worth quite a bit, but I choose to have a clean drivetrain with negligible effort. Turning on a crockpot at 10:30, pulling chains out of wax at 12:00 eating lunch for 10 minutes, breaking links free and reinstalling the chain take 5 minutes. Far faster than cleaning off a gunky drivetrain and re-applying lube every 75-100 miles.

To each their own. I just meant itís not the super-time consuming process itís being made out to be.
It's worth it to you. No problem. Why is it so hard to understand that many other people don't find it to be worth their time?
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Old 12-19-22, 01:37 PM
  #648  
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
Far faster than cleaning off a gunky drivetrain and re-applying lube every 75-100 miles.
.
75-100 miles?? Really, that's some really lousy lube that needs to be applied that often. The only lube I know of that is that bad is White Lightning.

Even most drip wax lubes will last 200 miles between lubing. Oil based wet lubes will last 500 miles easily.
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Old 12-19-22, 01:46 PM
  #649  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It's worth it to you. No problem. Why is it so hard to understand that many other people don't find it to be worth their time?
Oh, I understand it. Thereís just been a lot of conjecture about how long it takes, which my experience doesnít align with.

Its not right for everyone, I get that. IME the positives outweigh the negatives, but there are caveats of course. I did a gravel race last April where it rained all day, the wax was washed out by the end.
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Old 12-19-22, 02:46 PM
  #650  
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Originally Posted by Lombard
I just checked. A 105 11-speed chain costs $25 and a 105 11-speed cassette costs $57. Let's do the math. My current 50/50 oil/mineral spirits homebrew lube every 500 miles gets me at least 8K miles, but more like 10K miles out of a chain. Let's just say for argument's sake that a cassette needs to be replaced every second chain replacement (although I've never worn out a cassette). And for simplicity, since I ride about 3000 miles per year, let's say I get about 9000 miles out of a chain. So that turns out to be $25 at the 3 year mark and then $82 at the 6 year mark.

The cheapest crockpot costs about the same as a bicycle chain - $25. One pound of Molten Speedwax costs another $25. And how many uses can you get out of a pot of hot wax before you need to replace it? Plus all that extra time spent.

And again, none of you here in the hot wax cult have yet responded with how many miles you get from your hot waxed chains. NONE OF YOU.

As we used to say, it sounds like you're all head and no shaft.
i mentioned what i get in post 527 and 535. its just approximate though. my cost to do this is a $5 crock from good will, $1.25 for gulf wax, two free empty jars of peanut butter for cleaning and maybe a couple of bucks for OMS.

i don't consider myself to be in a cult. i don't go crazy over it and i'm not trying to convince anyone to do it. i don't really spend much time on it, i do it because i like doing it. the whole process probably takes about 2 hours each time but i only spend about 5-10 minutes actually doing anything. mostly time is spent sitting in the OMS and melting wax while i am cleaning something or working on car. when wax is melted i pull out the chain that has been sitting in frozen wax for a month and drop in the clean one, shut off crock and set it back on teh shelf for next month.

i'm almost wanting to try going back to drip lube but i really don't like the mess (or the perceived mess). i do recall using that blue park chain cleaning tool. hated it. always made such a mess. first time i used it a real mess was on the floor then started putting cardboard down to catch the mess. still had to clean bits of the bike though. maybe i used it wrong but i don't think so.
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