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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

Old 04-19-24, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Not looking for a fight, but curious.

Where is the actual data "clearly" showing this?
ZFC is currently testing candle wax and so far it isn't matching up against the brand stuff. Even though the test isn't finished yet and the most interesting metric, ie. wear jump point is yet to be published it would seem that candle wax doesn't last nearly as long as the better brand waxes.

Not looking for a fight, but curious.

Where is the actual data "clearly" showing this?
See the above.

How many use teflon or other additives ... and in what quantities ... and has any of this been scientifically proven to have a beneficial lubricating effect in real-world application, and/or a serious negative environmental impact? How much does a bike with a little teflon in the wax pollute per mile versus, say, a car?
You know this sorta seems like a gish gallop. Pose multiple difficult or impossible to answer questions in order to stump the opposition. I hope that isn't your aim.

Anyhow, I fairly sure none of the big names use teflon. At least Silca markets their wax as forever chemical free which would mean there's no teflon or ptfe as lubricant. Rex wouldn't use it since the company is European and they'd be crucified if it came out that they'd used powdered teflon in a chain lubricant.
MSwax uses moly
Silca uses tungsten disulfide
Rex uses something but it's unknown what it is.

The question about additives having a measurable effect is an interesting one and the only wax that has allowed for testing that is Rex, which has non additive base blocks and the black diamond additive blocks. The testing ZFC has done gives different results for higher concentrations of additive when compared to lower concentrations. Even more interestingly lower amounts of additives seem to fare better in the wet.

There's some effect from additives but since the softer waxes tend to fare much worse (AB Graphene for example) the actual wax formulation seems to more important by a big margin.

That last one is a false comparison. Comparing the pollution of bikes to cars is irrelevant. You shouldn't do something harmful just because there are worse things around. You shouldn't go sowing the roads with powdered teflon just for the principle of it especially when it costs you nothing to not add the teflon in the first place.

As has been mentioned, there is no actual Scientific data ... I am glad that Aussie guy made those videos, and I have been using his method with excellent effect for several years ... but a lot of the differences are marginal, and the overall impact unclear ... (for instance, wax with teflon is seen by some as an environmental evil but oil is okay?) Also, rewaxing intervals are only one metric ... show me the side-by-side tests with equivalent bikes with identical drivetrains and show which method causes less wear ... but you cannot use human operators of course ... you would need to hook both bikes to electric motors and shift at precisely coordinated intervals ...
That's exactly what ZFC is doing... Testing lubricants with identical drivetrains, electric motors, coordinated shifts, identical contamination levels etc.

And sicne no one really knows exactly what works best for each individual ... it is possible that using the expensive wax and taking that one extra ride, that extra forty or seventy miles, actually causes more wear than re-applying the cheap, home-made stuff one ride sooner .... or not.
What is your point? You override a waxed chain and there's wear? That's sorta what I was getting it. Longer rewax intervals push that envelope and allow for a better average level of wear than if the rewax intervals were shorter.

None of the science would hold up in a masters' program ... glad people did what they did, and for me, homemade paraffin/teflon is just fine ... but really, none of us know. We are all just deciding what we like and doing it.
I mean, wouldn't the ZFC protocol hold up in a masters program? And if so, why not?
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Old 04-19-24, 08:45 AM
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I have gotten into Immersive Waxing following the ZeroFrictionCycling videos. After cleaning both the chain and the rest of the components with UFO Cleaner, when I install the chain it sounds like this (I think the chain gear noise is too loud for a freshly waxed chain). I can't put URL or photos yet, so I can't show you what it sounds like, but it sounds like the chain is dry.

Adam himself from ZeroFrictionCycling warns that some chains retain less wax, but he doesn't mention the one I used (new Shimano 105 12 speed), so it gives me pause.I have only gone out one day to do series and the chain has not jumped, so I consider that the wear on the chainrings, pulleys and cassette (all very clean) should not be excessive. The noise is similar in both chains and in the one I had installed with a single plug I have the feeling that it is a little "loose", as if it were worn (same feeling I had after bathing with UFO Cleaner).

However, I contacted Adam and he suggested that the cassette would be worn out. After that, I went to buy a new cassette, but my (negative) surprise is that the chain continues to sound practically the same, as if it were not greased.

I would appreciate any help, I feel a little desperate

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Old 04-19-24, 03:17 PM
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I had a great experience first time waxing a chain. I bought a new bike with 12 speed di2 105, and cleaned the new chain of its factory coating with several baths of mineral spirits (mineral turps as they say down under), then with 1-2 baths of denatured alcohol. Each bath has just enough to cover the chain in the Tupperware I'm agitating in. Then a crockpot with Silca Secret Chain Blend. I can't remember what temp the wax was at, but it was hot. The chain went in and soaked for long enough for the wax and chain to both get to the right temp, then I swished the chain in the wax for a bit.

The chain was quiet from the start, and I'm 300+ miles in and it's still quiet. In the smallest cog, I can feel the vibrations of the chain going around the pulleys and tiny 11 tooth cog, but that's not noise due to an inadequately lubed chain. It's my first rodeo with di2, so I'm probably not dialed on the rear mech yet.

Do you hear metallic squeaks of metal on metal? If the chain and wax were not hot enough, maybe it didn't work into the small spaces. But just hearing the chain make contact with pulleys and cogs isn't worrisome. At first there is wax working out of the spaces between the plates and the chain needs to loosen up a bit.
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Old 04-20-24, 04:40 AM
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At 300 miles you’re overdue for a rewax so noise could be from that. The general rule of thumb is every 200 miles for wax intervals.
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Old 04-21-24, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by eduskator
Wax it at the right intervals and you should get anywhere between 6000mi to 9000mi from a single chain!
Howdy!

I last checked this thread back around post #994. I don't know if immersive waxing should be more popular, but discussing it is certainly popular, since the posts number more than 1300.

I write to ask, has someone gotten 6000 miles from a waxed chain? Has someone gotten 9000 miles from a waxed chain? Or is this a hypothetical? I get 3500-4000 miles from wet lubing, so am curious about these incredible numbers.

All best,
BC
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Old 04-21-24, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
Howdy!

I last checked this thread back around post #994. I don't know if immersive waxing should be more popular, but discussing it is certainly popular, since the posts number more than 1300.

I write to ask, has someone gotten 6000 miles from a waxed chain? Has someone gotten 9000 miles from a waxed chain? Or is this a hypothetical? I get 3500-4000 miles from wet lubing, so am curious about these incredible numbers.

All best,
BC
If you start with a quality chain and re-wax religiously, I believe you can hit those numbers. I'm up in that area with my chains using a rotation system and waxing at 300 miles or less depending on riding conditions and the chains aren't measuring out any significant wear yet. And all I use are donated candles from the neighbor ladies and sometimes some paraffin canning wax. But the best part is no greasy smudges on my clothes or hands when tinkering on the bikes.
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Old 04-22-24, 03:42 AM
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I wouldn't risk stretching the chain replacement usage if the riding use could land you in a sketchy environment. For those that race around the block & stuff, you do you.
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Old 04-22-24, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by McFlyRides
I had a great experience first time waxing a chain. I bought a new bike with 12 speed di2 105, and cleaned the new chain of its factory coating with several baths of mineral spirits (mineral turps as they say down under), then with 1-2 baths of denatured alcohol. Each bath has just enough to cover the chain in the Tupperware I'm agitating in. Then a crockpot with Silca Secret Chain Blend. I can't remember what temp the wax was at, but it was hot. The chain went in and soaked for long enough for the wax and chain to both get to the right temp, then I swished the chain in the wax for a bit.

The chain was quiet from the start, and I'm 300+ miles in and it's still quiet. In the smallest cog, I can feel the vibrations of the chain going around the pulleys and tiny 11 tooth cog, but that's not noise due to an inadequately lubed chain. It's my first rodeo with di2, so I'm probably not dialed on the rear mech yet.

Do you hear metallic squeaks of metal on metal? If the chain and wax were not hot enough, maybe it didn't work into the small spaces. But just hearing the chain make contact with pulleys and cogs isn't worrisome. At first there is wax working out of the spaces between the plates and the chain needs to loosen up a bit.
The problem was that my cassette is worn out and the sound between chain and cassette and chain and pulleys was louder than it should be. Now it sounds, but it is a quieter sound, although it is not a quiet transmission (I have been told elsewhere that the 105 transmission is not particularly quiet).

On the other hand, I find it curious how loose the chain is when you clean it and when you remove a little of the wax. When I go to put it in the Crockpot it looks like a worn chain.
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Old 04-22-24, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Troul
I wouldn't risk stretching the chain replacement usage if the riding use could land you in a sketchy environment. For those that race around the block & stuff, you do you.
I measure each chain before waxing. No risk involved. I even re-use my quick links until they slip together without effort. Might be some risk in that. But life in general is risky.
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Old 04-22-24, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jajr1999
On the other hand, I find it curious how loose the chain is when you clean it and when you remove a little of the wax. When I go to put it in the Crockpot it looks like a worn chain.
After stripping the new chain it was pretty loose. Then the cooled wax needs to be worked out a little before mounting the chain (run the chain over a metal bar) then it comes into its own after a few minutes on the bike.
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Old 04-22-24, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by McFlyRides
After stripping the new chain it was pretty loose. Then the cooled wax needs to be worked out a little before mounting the chain (run the chain over a metal bar) then it comes into its own after a few minutes on the bike.
Yes. But I meant that the chain, when you remove it to re-wax and it has been losing wax, gives the sensation that it is "worn".
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Old 04-22-24, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jajr1999
Yes. But I meant that the chain, when you remove it to re-wax and it has been losing wax, gives the sensation that it is "worn".
Tell me more about what you mean.
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Old 04-22-24, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SpedFast
I measure each chain before waxing. No risk involved. I even re-use my quick links until they slip together without effort. Might be some risk in that. But life in general is risky.
Life is risky business in general, but the 11+ speed chains seem to have a higher probability in breaking beyond a certain use. For that, I am willing to shell out the dough to reduce a failure experience.
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Old 04-22-24, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul
Life is risky business in general, but the 11+ speed chains seem to have a higher probability in breaking beyond a certain use. For that, I am willing to shell out the dough to reduce a failure experience.
Mine are all 11spd now since I got away from MTBing and vintage iron. If I raced or competed, I would definitely feel the same, but it's just recreational use even if I do put a lot of miles on my bikes and sometimes get too far from home.
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Old 04-22-24, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by McFlyRides
Tell me more about what you mean.
When a chain is used (before when I used oil lubricant), it was noticeable because between the bolt and the side plate of the chain, there was a small movement, in addition, the chain gauge entered.
Now, the chain gauge does not fit, but there is movement between the side plate of the chain and the bolt and I believe it is due to the UFO Cleaner, which leaves the chain completely "bare".
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Old 04-23-24, 09:30 PM
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Thanks, I didn't look that close to notice, but a new chain stripped bare does feel loose.
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Old 04-23-24, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by McFlyRides
Thanks, I didn't look that close to notice, but a new chain stripped bare does feel loose.
Thank you, this way I feel calm
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Old 04-24-24, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by eduskator
Wax it at the right intervals and you should get anywhere between 6000mi to 9000mi from a single chain!
Originally Posted by BCDrums
I write to ask, has someone gotten 6000 miles from a waxed chain? Has someone gotten 9000 miles from a waxed chain? Or is this a hypothetical? I get 3500-4000 miles from wet lubing, so am curious about these incredible numbers.
Originally Posted by SpedFast
If you start with a quality chain and re-wax religiously, I believe you can hit those numbers. I'm up in that area with my chains using a rotation system and waxing at 300 miles or less depending on riding conditions and the chains aren't measuring out any significant wear yet.
Thanks for your reply. So you haven't gotten 6000 miles out of a waxed chain? What is your high mileage so far on your current system?

I note that, if you are rotating three chains, the first chain won't reach 6000 miles of use until you have ridden more than 17,000 miles, is that correct? That's a Long Game. How many miles do you ride per year?

Again I ask, not having read this entire thread, is someone getting 6000-9000 miles from a waxed chain?

BC
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Old 04-24-24, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
Thanks for your reply. So you haven't gotten 6000 miles out of a waxed chain? What is your high mileage so far on your current system?

I note that, if you are rotating three chains, the first chain won't reach 6000 miles of use until you have ridden more than 17,000 miles, is that correct? That's a Long Game. How many miles do you ride per year?

Again I ask, not having read this entire thread, is someone getting 6000-9000 miles from a waxed chain?

BC
My goal is a minimum of 7000 miles/year and I've been doing that and then some for the past 6 years, or ever since I switched from MTBing to road biking. ( I got too old to risk broken bones-76) Except for the un-named foreign made inexpensive chain that wore/stretched out in under 2000 miles, I'm definitely over 7K miles/chain. I only run KMC, Shimano, or SRAM chains now and I have well over 20K on the cassette on my fave bike even though I've had to replace the large chain ring. I didn't use to wax/swap my chains as often as I do now. I used to run them closer to 600 mile between swap but found I like the relaxing effect of soaking chains. I also only use donated candles and hard paraffin canning wax with no additives and clean my wax by scraping off the bottom layer of crud every few uses. Weather and riding conditions will have an impact, but I'll never do mine different than what I'm doing now. HTH
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Old 04-24-24, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by McFlyRides
Then the cooled wax needs to be worked out a little before mounting the chain (run the chain over a metal bar) then it comes into its own after a few minutes on the bike.
I recommend running the chain around a polished wooden broom handle rather than a metal bar to shed the excessive wax.
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Old 04-25-24, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by eduskator
Mine will start making noise after like 100kms but between 100-300kms it will sound the same. After 300km, it gets a lot noisier. I agree with you; an increased noise doesn't mean that it's less lubricated. To me, it's simply an indication that I've passed the 300km mark and that it needs to re-bath. I'm not doing this to increase lifespan. Having a silent drivetrain is a preference of mine.
I have read almost the entire forum to understand where the noise could come from. The Shimano Di2 105 transmission is not the quietest (as I was already told), but I noticed a rougher noise after the first outing, so I waxed again after the first two outings (approximately 120km). I already know where it comes from and it will last 3-4 routes. (Problems of being new to Immersive Waxing).
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Old 04-25-24, 09:19 AM
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I have mechanical 105 on my spare/zwift bike and Ultegra DI2 on my main bike. The Ultegra equipped bike is indeed quieter.

Noise is unavoidable as there will always be friction. There's more wax on the outer part of the chain and in the inner part when it's fresh out of the pot, explaining why, in my opinion, it is always quieter for the first few hours. Doesn't mean that it needs to be rewaxed as soon as it starts making more noise though.
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Old 04-25-24, 10:26 AM
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When I need to buy another chain, I will buy the Ultegra, but I bought the cassette new and it is 105. Therefore, there will still be some noise
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Old 05-01-24, 10:33 PM
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I've started waxing my chains, and one the bikes I ride strictly on the road, it is great although a bit more work.

OTOH, once a week, I ride down to Mission Beach and around the bay with friends on a vintage Gary Fisher. Not that I'm waxing the chain, it seems to pick up more sand. In all honesty, it's hard to tell what an oiled chain picks up as they are black and gunky, but the wax definitely grabs the sand. A bit off topic, but has anyone tried a dry graphite lube? Any suggestions from the MTB crowd?
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