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Clipping in [Flame suit on]

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Clipping in [Flame suit on]

Old 09-11-22, 08:45 AM
  #76  
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My first time clipless was hilarious. I was riding my mtn. bike and slipped on some tree roots and fell over. I was head down on a steep slope and I couldn't unclip; I had the tension WAY too high. I had to wait for another rider to come up and help me. She got my feet loose and after she finished giggling, she admitted the same had happened to her years ago.

Spinning a high cadence on flats seems like a recipe for disaster; especially in wet weather. Climbing double digit grades on flats doesn't seem like a good idea, either.

Perhaps if the OP were to try riding a track bike, he might like clipless pedals. (please don't ride fixed gear bikes without foot retention!)
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Old 09-11-22, 08:46 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
A collection of data, sometimes termed a dataset is singular, but there can be multiple datasets. And when we refer to an accumulation of different sets of data from a number of studies, we say "the data say", not "the dataset says".
Data don't talk.
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Old 09-11-22, 09:02 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Data don't talk.
They do if you know how to listen. Sometimes, the data sing.
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Old 09-11-22, 09:05 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
They do if you know how to listen. Sometimes, the data sing.
The suggestion of one of my postdocs is to write

"These data permit us to say ..." which I now try to use.

But, then, do data permit?
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Old 09-11-22, 11:01 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Data don't talk.
Data laughs at this thread.

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Old 09-11-22, 11:11 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
If people actually bothered to read my post, this is pretty much exactly what I said. I don't like them and I don't see a benefit. But I clearly state that if it's your thing, then you do you.
Really? Per your post: "What I see from it is there is a lot of expense and risk with very little benefit. I tried to determine when and who might benefit from clipping in and to be fair, I suppose if you do a lot of riding in the rain or snow or an oil storm(?) then I can see how keeping your feet clipped to the pedals could give you some reassurance. " Doesn't exactly sound like you find them useful for those (most of us) who ride iin mostly decent weather. I ride flats, but not saying those who aren't riding in "rain or snow or an oil storm" will find no benefit. Trying to hide the fact you think clipless are of no benefit by saying "you do you" is lame at best.

Last edited by freeranger; 09-11-22 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 09-11-22, 11:48 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
They do if you know how to listen. Sometimes, the data sing.
Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
The suggestion of one of my postdocs is to write

"These data permit us to say ..." which I now try to use.

But, then, do data permit?
I think I’ve used the expression, “The data suggest…“
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Old 09-11-22, 11:56 AM
  #83  
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At the risk of interrupting a grammer lesson I would just like to say these clipless deniers obviously never sprint. I practice up muscle routines just because when your strongest muscles are giving out you recruit any muscle left. I have crashed the trainer doing sprints. Still slow tho.
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Old 09-11-22, 12:00 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Data don't talk.
thought it was dead men. or do they just not wear plaid.
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Old 09-11-22, 12:31 PM
  #85  
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Data doesn't wear plaid .... well, he might, in a holodeck fantasy .....
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Old 09-11-22, 01:04 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
At the risk of interrupting a grammer lesson I would just like to say these clipless deniers obviously never sprint. I practice up muscle routines just because when your strongest muscles are giving out you recruit any muscle left. I have crashed the trainer doing sprints. Still slow tho.
To continue the off-topic pedantry, I'll note that the correct spelling is grammar.

And yeah, all-out sprints and steep climbs really benefit from clipless pedals. But again, a noob like VegasJen has no clue.
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Old 09-11-22, 01:12 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
To continue the off-topic pedantry, I'll note that the correct spelling is grammar.
True!

Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
And yeah, all-out sprints and steep climbs really benefit from clipless pedals.
Yes, I find that my feet slide around slightly when climbing out of the saddle on flat pedals with pins. That is why I have been planning to go clipless.
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Old 09-11-22, 01:13 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
BTW, for the OP - as someone above said, you'd benefit from learning how and when to shift. Also, you might benefit from spending time and effort on bike set up and maintenance. With the derailleurs and shifters set up properly, and shifted properly, you shouldn't find yourself stalling out and dropping the chain, pedal type notwithstanding.
OK, I won't take offense to your presumption that I'm an idiot and we'll just address the point. Even if I "learned to shift" and even if I spent time and effort on "bike set up and maintenance" and even if everything worked just perfectly. The point is that I still see no benefit, or at least minimal benefit, to me in the way and normal conditions in which I ride. But people are focusing on shifting and maintenance because that's easier than addressing what I said.
Originally Posted by znomit View Post
What is the point of this thread?

I’ve fallen a few times. The first was the traditional “just forgot” about three rides in. Another on the MTB trying to ride around an obstacle where I should have dismounted. The last one was after a long stint on MTB pedals I switched to my road bike and my muscle memory couldn’t handle the change in twist effort.

You should try MTB SPD. They’re easier to clip out of.
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...spd-vs-spd-sl/
The point of my post really is to counter some of the cycling dogma. "Oh, you have to have this" or "you have to do that", or your not a real cyclist. I may be new to cycling, at least as a serious hobby (ain't no spring chicken here), but I've been around the block a few dozen times. I've learned *some* cyclists are some of the most clique-y people I've ever met. I have only been on the forum for a few months but I've seen new people come in and early on people are advising them to learn to ride clipped in so they think there's some life changing magic that happens when you start riding clipped in.
Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
“ I hate meeces to pieces”. Let’s debate the plural of Meece.

Have to agree the OP came to argue and even though there are excellent points made about learning how to properly use cleats in a safe environment and learning to downshift early on hills have fallen on deaf ears. People come to boards like this to learn from people with more experience and not to berate them because you personally disagree. This is not a good way to make friends or add credibility to future posts or discussions. I can understand getting mad because you fell, but hell we all fall when we first try them, just like learning to ride a bike, but we didn’t learn to ride a bike going up or down hills but on safe flats and with a fair amount of practice. Blame the equipment all you want but your lapse in judgment by not learning how to use them in a safe environment and learning to properly downshift before stalling is more at fault. I liken this to never having driven a stick shift and jumping into one for the first time and thinking you know how to drive it and then stalling it and stalling it trying to go up a hill and then declaring that all cars with sticks are bogus and that anyone who drives one has been duped and is an idiot because they want to be like race car drivers. It’s not the equipment its you and your attitude. And if you can provide one link to a credible study by a research institute or university about the lack of efficiency or efficacy compared to flats, I will be more than happy to read it.

Pedal what want but shaming everyone else who doesn’t agree with your point of view that have ages of experience just makes you look bad.

Rant on but your credibility is shot. And I could care less what pedals you do or do not use. To each their own.

How’s that flame suit holding up? You knew you would stir up a hornets nest but still you did it. All I can ask is why? Because you wanted to vent? With an audience of mostly men, that doesn’t go over real big.
Flame suit is fine. Thanks for asking. Some of it was venting. I was actually going to post a thread that was a little more well rounded after I finished my observations in a couple weeks. That last experience cut in to that schedule. I spent a half hour yesterday removing the SPD and Look pedals from all my bikes. Never again. And I'm happy to "look bad" to all those people with ages of experience. Judgement goes both ways, you know.

It's funny. I come here with an opinion contrary to cycling dogma and people treat me like I have never ridden a bike before. I took my training wheels off and slapped on a pair of Looks. Ya, that's what happened.
Originally Posted by bampilot06 View Post
What’s the OP views on going Tubeless? Asking for a friend.
Don't know. Don't care.
Originally Posted by freeranger View Post
Really? Per your post: "What I see from it is there is a lot of expense and risk with very little benefit. I tried to determine when and who might benefit from clipping in and to be fair, I suppose if you do a lot of riding in the rain or snow or an oil storm(?) then I can see how keeping your feet clipped to the pedals could give you some reassurance. " Doesn't exactly sound like you find them useful for those (most of us) who ride iin mostly decent weather. I ride flats, but not saying those who aren't riding in "rain or snow or an oil storm" will find no benefit. Trying to hide the fact you think clipless are of no benefit by saying "you do you" is lame at best.
Judge however you want. Again, I'm OK with my opinion and those who disagree aren't bothering me in the least. Still here. Nobody is running me off.
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Old 09-11-22, 01:48 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
It's funny. I come here with an opinion contrary to cycling dogma and people treat me like I have never ridden a bike before.
I'm not going to debate whether or not clipless is a part of "cycling dogma," but the issue isn't your opinion of as it relates to you and your riding. The problem is your judgement of others, based on your (very clearly limited) experience and a youtube video or two. Stop trying to draw (mostly demeaning) conclusions on the value to others when you haven't a clue as to how or why some of us ride.
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Old 09-11-22, 01:53 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
The datum is a single measurement.
The data are a set of measurements.
The data-set is a collection of measurements.

Many people use "data" interchangeably with "data-set". Since we aren't writing in Latin, a little bit of flexibility is appropriate.

British people say stuff like "the crowd are going wild." It isn't grammatically wrong. It is purely convention. (They invented the English language, so it is very hard to make the case that it is grammatically or in any other way incorrect.)
​​​​​​"Data scientists" do this.
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Old 09-11-22, 01:57 PM
  #91  
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Everyone has done the "clip out wrong foot and fall over in slow motion" bit on road pedals. I thought I'd avoid it by practicing unclipping and clipping in on the trainer, only to do the slow motion fall with the right foot clipped out and me tipping over the left side, right on my parking lot. Then I got the hang of it, only to do the slow motion fall in front of about a hundred cyclists while waiting for a granfondo to start 🤣
​​​
You learn not to do it and it becomes instinctive to lean the bike over to the side you do your unclipping on. It helps to use the lower tension setting at the start because you can save it sometimes if you do the wrong thing. Now I use the Looks with the 16Nm carbon plates on my road bike, because the pedals came with it, and the high tension hasn't been an issue.

I do commute on flats, though, because life is just easier that way in start and stop traffic. However, on my road bike I can't imagine putting on anything other than road pedals.

As far as the benefits are concerned, GCN also found the same thing as everyone with a powermeter did; you can sprint much harder with clipless. The difference is so stark you don't even need any statistical analysis nor fancy equipment.

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Old 09-11-22, 02:13 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Data doesn't wear plaid .... well, he might, in a holodeck fantasy .....
The screen-writers should have named him Datum.
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Old 09-11-22, 02:15 PM
  #93  
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Big Clipless is suppressing all of the datums that undermine its claim to supremacy.
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Old 09-11-22, 02:19 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
It's funny. I come here with an opinion contrary to cycling dogma and people treat me like I have never ridden a bike before. I took my training wheels off and slapped on a pair of Looks. Ya, that's what happened.
Mission accomplished!

One seldom witnesses this kind of need for persecution outside of fundamentalist religious sects.
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Old 09-11-22, 02:24 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
OK, I won't take offense to your presumption that I'm an idiot and we'll just address the point. Even if I "learned to shift" and even if I spent time and effort on "bike set up and maintenance" and even if everything worked just perfectly. The point is that I still see no benefit, or at least minimal benefit, to me in the way and normal conditions in which I ride. But people are focusing on shifting and maintenance because that's easier than addressing what I said.
Oh, lighten up, Francis. If you start a thread throwing elbows, you're gonna catch a few coming back. You started out combative. Just look how you titled the thread!

I don't think you're an idiot. I think you're a novice. I suggested you adjust your setup and your use of gearing because the problem you had with clipless pedals had almost nothing to do with the clipless pedals in the first place. You stalled out because you didn't change gears soon enough (technique), and then dropped the chain (technique and adjustment). I ride 130-160 miles a week, on roads with lots of climbing, and I don't get in that situation because I shift before it's too late, AND I spend a lot of time and effort making sure my derailleurs and cables are in good shape and well adjusted. If I need to shift while standing on the pedals, I lighten the pressure on the pedals for half a rotation and the gear changes without graunching or dropping the chain.

You don't have to ride clipless pedals to be a "real" cyclist, but again, the problems you had with them had mostly to do with everything else but the pedals. You fell over because of a problem with the bike and you couldn't get your foot out in time. So, maybe work on how not to encounter the problems that caused you to have to clip out in the first place.
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Old 09-11-22, 02:30 PM
  #96  
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I am sure that a few others here have seen this video. When you are at very high cadence you have to have your feet firmly attached to the pedals. Years ago I was in a spin class and we were doing high cadence sprints. The instructor was watching me spin as fast as I could. These bikes were very basic, no electronics. He came over to me and announced another sprint. He placed his hand where my knee would hit it with each rotation, and counted the hits over 15 seconds. Turns out I was turning at 210 rpm. He did this because my very heavy spin bike was actually moving around on the floor at my top rpm. I can't get much above 140rpm on rollers but even then, at those speeds, you have to have foot retention, whether it is toe clips with very tight straps, or clipless pedals. I have been riding with my feet firmly attached to my pedals for over 50 years, including a fair bit of road and criterium racing as well as thousands of spirited group rides. I have seen instances where someone's foot slipped off their pedal while pedalling hard out of the saddle, usually caused by a worn out cleat. Isn't pretty

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Old 09-11-22, 02:32 PM
  #97  
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Oh, and in the very same post you say,
I may be new to cycling, at least as a serious hobby...
And then you say,
...people treat me like I have never ridden a bike before.
So, you're new to serious road cycling, and you come here and ask the questions someone new to serious road cycling would ask, but if people respond to you as if you're new to serious road cycling, you get your nose out of joint. O-o-okay....
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Old 09-11-22, 02:35 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
It's funny. I come here with an opinion contrary to cycling dogma and people treat me like I have never ridden a bike before.
Hmmmm ... I wonder how they got that impression?

Originally Posted by VegasJen
I'm a n00b, fair enough.
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Old 09-11-22, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post


So, you're new to serious road cycling, and you come here and ask the questions someone new to serious road cycling would ask, but if people respond to you as if you're new to serious road cycling, you get your nose out of joint. O-o-okay....
Good points. I had been riding pretty seriously for 20 years when I joined a serious cycling club. I had no idea what to expect. Although I was very strong, I was also very willing to learn.I had a lot to learn as it turned out. I was willing to accept a young kid in his teens giving me HE double hockey sticks when I cut him off in a sprint. I was totally committed to becoming an accomplished rider who could be respected. The accumulated wisdom of generations who have come before is not to be discounted. Thanks to the guidance of the wonderful club members I met over the years I became a successful masters racer. I have a drawerful of medals, including a national championship and multiple podium performances at the Quebec provincial level. I attribute all of that to a willingness to listen to advice given
Guess what? 99.9% of the people in that club which had an average age in their 50's were using clipless pedals

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Old 09-11-22, 03:40 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
To continue the off-topic pedantry, I'll note that the correct spelling is grammar.

And yeah, all-out sprints and steep climbs really benefit from clipless pedals. But again, a noob like VegasJen has no clue.
The spelling was deliberate.
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