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Looking to ''upgrade'' my Giant TCR for a BMC Teammachine - Convince me?

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Looking to ''upgrade'' my Giant TCR for a BMC Teammachine - Convince me?

Old 11-01-22, 12:20 PM
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GhostRider62
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So, why did the 5 year old say Canyon and Cannondale are Shiiite? I've been considering both of them....?

How about the Felt FRD AR? The first version of the AR was my favo carbon bike
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Old 11-02-22, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
So, why did the 5 year old say Canyon and Cannondale are Shiiite? I've been considering both of them....?

How about the Felt FRD AR? The first version of the AR was my favo carbon bike
I would guess the usual BB tolerances and rough carbon internals - usually massively over-stated for effect (promoting his own BB replacements) on some dubious old frame one of his customers sent in. Sometimes he makes valid points, but if you exclude any brands that he has slagged off at some point then you are really limited to Time and maybe older Look frames, lol.
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Old 11-02-22, 07:26 AM
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Only time will tell how well my two Yoeleo R12 frames hold up, but after a few months, my impressions are all good. The bikes ride and handle great. Both have seen speeds of 55 mph and high speed cornering. I use Wheels Manufacturing BBs with angular contact hearings to avoid creaking BBs, but the BB386 bores are tight and apparently well aligned. The paint jobs are great. I got an all pearlescent white, special order frame at no additional cost in about 30 days. A standard model was delivered in 9 days. Their integrated handlebars are very nice too. Each cost $1215 delivered, with seatpost and bars.
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Old 11-02-22, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Only time will tell how well my two Yoeleo R12 frames hold up, but after a few months, my impressions are all good. The bikes ride and handle great. Both have seen speeds of 55 mph and high speed cornering. I use Wheels Manufacturing BBs with angular contact hearings to avoid creaking BBs, but the BB386 bores are tight and apparently well aligned. The paint jobs are great. I got an all pearlescent white, special order frame at no additional cost in about 30 days. A standard model was delivered in 9 days. Their integrated handlebars are very nice too. Each cost $1215 delivered, with seatpost and bars.
They do look good. I wish knockoffs like this came in larger sizes. The biggest only has a Stack and Reach of 581 and 393mm. Bummer. Guess they are mostly making them for the local market.
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Old 11-02-22, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
They do look good. I wish knockoffs like this came in larger sizes. The biggest only has a Stack and Reach of 581 and 393mm. Bummer. Guess they are mostly making them for the local market.
Only the gravel bike is made larger. It goes up to 640 stack and 396 reach.
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Old 11-03-22, 06:40 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
They do look good. I wish knockoffs like this came in larger sizes. The biggest only has a Stack and Reach of 581 and 393mm. Bummer. Guess they are mostly making them for the local market.

A 393mm stack? That's like M/L - 56cm frame specs. Surprised they don't make bigger ones for the North American / European market.
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Old 11-03-22, 07:17 AM
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A race geometry in size 58 (or L in Canyon's sizing) is typically around 580-581mm of stack. You need to be really tall to need a size 60 or larger bike, wouldn't quite sell in Asia (their jersey sizing is also, well, I wear an S in Europe, but I have an Aliexpress trisuit which is an L and fits great except the pockets are unreasonably high).

Anecdotally, looking at local FB market I see a lot of L and XL frames of people who aren't quite extra tall.​​​​​Seatpost hiked to high heaven and a stack of spacers under the stem. Accident or causation 🤷
​​​​​​

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Old 11-04-22, 06:24 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
A race geometry in size 58 (or L in Canyon's sizing) is typically around 580-581mm of stack. You need to be really tall to need a size 60 or larger bike, wouldn't quite sell in Asia (their jersey sizing is also, well, I wear an S in Europe, but I have an Aliexpress trisuit which is an L and fits great except the pockets are unreasonably high).

Anecdotally, looking at local FB market I see a lot of L and XL frames of people who aren't quite extra tall.​​​​​Seatpost hiked to high heaven and a stack of spacers under the stem. Accident or causation 🤷
​​​​​​
Yeah, like 6'3'' and above.

I'm 6'1'' and ride a Large (58ish cm), and could very well ride a ML (56ish cm). In fact, previous bike was a ML and I preferred it. Narrower handlebar, shorter crank arms, etc. Stem wasn't slammed to the ground and seatpost was higher, however.

Last edited by eduskator; 11-04-22 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 11-04-22, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post

I'm 6'1'' and ride a Large (58ish cm), and could very well ride a ML (56ish cm).
Same here. I tend to prefer 58(L) because I have relatively long arms.
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Old 11-04-22, 06:50 AM
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Bike fit isn't as simple as M or L or 6 foot vs 6'1''. In case, Reach and STA are much more important than Stack. For instance, the horizontal distance from my BB to the hoods is 622 mm and from the nose of my saddle to the bars is 597mm. This is a 150mm stem and bars with 125mm reach on a 58 cm frame with stack and reach of 605mm and 396mm. I should be on the 61cm but even still the stem would be 130mm for the same static fit (with a flipped stem). You can force a rider onto a smaller frame without much difficulty, but is it a good idea.

If fit were so simple, we would not have so such a market for bike fitters.

Back to the OP's question, there is one very big difference between the two bikes from my perspective that deserves consideration. The BMC has a 1 degree steeper STA compared to the Giant (in my size), which effectively decreases the Reach by 10-15 mm (guess....I did not do the calculations). Weight forward and move over the crank is fashionable these days......personally, I prefer to have less weight on my hands and would opt for the Giant
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Old 11-04-22, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Bike fit isn't as simple as M or L or 6 foot vs 6'1''.
For sure different manufacturers have widely differing ways of progressing both reach and stack through their frame sizes. Some increase stack far more than reach and vice-versa through their frame sizes. But pretty much any bike I look at ends up being a size L or 58 cm. I could size down if I needed to, but wouldn't ever want to size up.
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Old 11-04-22, 07:09 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
For sure different manufacturers have widely differing ways of progressing both reach and stack through their frame sizes. Some increase stack far more than reach and vice-versa through their frame sizes. But pretty much any bike I look at ends up being a size L or 58 cm. I could size down if I needed to, but wouldn't ever want to size up.
It depends on what you wish to achieve.

I had a custom bike made for long distance events on lousy roads. The frame is especially long in wheelbase, Reach and has a lot of trail. I would not want to ride it generally, but it is fit for purpose.

If you had short legs and a long torso in a relative sense, you might be forced to size up. Most bars have 80mm reach, I am riding with 125mm bar reach and 150mm stem. Height is 75 inches with an Ape Index of 1.05+
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Old 11-04-22, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Bike fit isn't as simple as M or L or 6 foot vs 6'1''. In case, Reach and STA are much more important than Stack. For instance, the horizontal distance from my BB to the hoods is 622 mm and from the nose of my saddle to the bars is 597mm. This is a 150mm stem and bars with 125mm reach on a 58 cm frame with stack and reach of 605mm and 396mm. I should be on the 61cm but even still the stem would be 130mm for the same static fit (with a flipped stem). You can force a rider onto a smaller frame without much difficulty, but is it a good idea.

If fit were so simple, we would not have so such a market for bike fitters.

Back to the OP's question, there is one very big difference between the two bikes from my perspective that deserves consideration. The BMC has a 1 degree steeper STA compared to the Giant (in my size), which effectively decreases the Reach by 10-15 mm (guess....I did not do the calculations). Weight forward and move over the crank is fashionable these days......personally, I prefer to have less weight on my hands and would opt for the Giant
What's even more important is how you feel on the said bike. I've had the chance to own both ML and Large TCRs and I do prefer the ML. I was fine with the shorter reach and stack. The only odd thing is the long seat post sticking out because of the top tube angle of a compact frameset. The Teammachine, as well as any other aero-race bike have a ''flatter'' top tube, which makes the whole thing look better IMO.
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Old 11-04-22, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
What's even more important is how you feel on the said bike. I've had the chance to own both ML and Large TCRs and I do prefer the ML. I was fine with the shorter reach and stack. The only odd thing is the long seat post sticking out because of the top tube angle of a compact frameset. The Teammachine, as well as any other aero-race bike have a ''flatter'' top tube, which makes the whole thing look better IMO.
Smart that you rode both to see how they felt. Being able to test ride a bike is quite a luxury these days. I don't recall a shop every saying, oh ya, we have both the 58 and 61 for you to try. Now, it seems the answer is like, "you might get it next year, if you are lucky. The odds are better if you buy the bigger size". I kid you not, I was told that

I don't have an issue aesthetically with sloping top tubes and longer seatposts typically enhance saddle comfort.
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Old 11-04-22, 10:13 AM
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It's a luxury that most people don't have. There are special events in my area from time to time where you get to test ride bikes, but most of the time, you buy and you try after.

On my end, I owned both. My 2018 Pro 0 was a ML and I thought it was just a little smaller so I got a Large when I bought my current 2021 Pro 0. Now, I find it just a little too big .

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Old 11-04-22, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
It depends on what you wish to achieve.

I had a custom bike made for long distance events on lousy roads. The frame is especially long in wheelbase, Reach and has a lot of trail. I would not want to ride it generally, but it is fit for purpose.

If you had short legs and a long torso in a relative sense, you might be forced to size up. Most bars have 80mm reach, I am riding with 125mm bar reach and 150mm stem. Height is 75 inches with an Ape Index of 1.05+
I recently came across this mini-comparison of frame reach vs stack for various road bikes. I thought it was quite interesting how manufacturers differ in their sizing strategies.

https://www.myvelofit.com/fit-academ...nce-road-bikes
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Old 11-04-22, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Bike fit isn't as simple as M or L or 6 foot vs 6'1''. In case, Reach and STA are much more important than Stack. For instance, the horizontal distance from my BB to the hoods is 622 mm and from the nose of my saddle to the bars is 597mm. This is a 150mm stem and bars with 125mm reach on a 58 cm frame with stack and reach of 605mm and 396mm. I should be on the 61cm but even still the stem would be 130mm for the same static fit (with a flipped stem). You can force a rider onto a smaller frame without much difficulty, but is it a good idea.

If fit were so simple, we would not have so such a market for bike fitters.

Back to the OP's question, there is one very big difference between the two bikes from my perspective that deserves consideration. The BMC has a 1 degree steeper STA compared to the Giant (in my size), which effectively decreases the Reach by 10-15 mm (guess....I did not do the calculations). Weight forward and move over the crank is fashionable these days......personally, I prefer to have less weight on my hands and would opt for the Giant
Changes in the seat tube angle have NO affect on reach, since reach is the horizontal distance from a vertical line through the BB center to the top-center of the headset bearing. You're talking about moving the saddle fore/aft and stem length but forgot bar reach. All of those can change the fit.

Unless you're new to cycling, you should know what range of STA works for you and what seatpost setback you want. Reach and stack tell the whole story unless you're moving the saddle to change reach instead of getting yourself balanced over the BB. I've bought six frames in four years, based solely on reach and stack. I ride a smaller frame and they nearly all have a 74-75 degree STA. If one had a 75, I'd use a 32mm setback post instead of a 25mm. If the frame has a proprietary post and only 15mm of setback, I wouldn't buy it. I use the same saddle on all bikes and set the saddle tip 60-65mm behind the BB at the proper height first. I also use the same 80mm handlebar reach, so only the stem length might vary from a 100 to a 110.

Also, frame reach can only be compared at the same stack height. Every 10mm of increased stack reduces reach by about 3mm.

​​​​​
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Old 11-04-22, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post

Also, frame reach can only be compared at the same stack height. Every 10mm of increased stack reduces reach by about 3mm.

​​​​​
Yes, this is an important consideration when comparing frames with differing frame stack that may appear to have identical frame reach. If you set them both up with the same total stack height by adjusting stem spacers, then their reach will be different. The reach of the lower stack frame will reduce due to the extra stem spacers. It explains why frame reach doesn't appear to change by as much as you might expect on smaller frames with lower stack height. Once you normalise reach for a specific stack height it makes more sense.
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Old 11-04-22, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Changes in the seat tube angle have NO affect on reach, since reach is the horizontal distance from a vertical line through the BB center to the top-center of the headset bearing. You're talking about moving the saddle fore/aft and stem length but forgot bar reach. All of those can change the fit.

Unless you're new to cycling, you should know what range of STA works for you and what seatpost setback you want. Reach and stack tell the whole story unless you're moving the saddle to change reach instead of getting yourself balanced over the BB. I've bought six frames in four years, based solely on reach and stack. I ride a smaller frame and they nearly all have a 74-75 degree STA. If one had a 75, I'd use a 32mm setback post instead of a 25mm. If the frame has a proprietary post and only 15mm of setback, I wouldn't buy it. I use the same saddle on all bikes and set the saddle tip 60-65mm behind the BB at the proper height first. I also use the same 80mm handlebar reach, so only the stem length might vary from a 100 to a 110.

Also, frame reach can only be compared at the same stack height. Every 10mm of increased stack reduces reach by about 3mm.

​​​​​
I guess you failed Trig?

Clearly, you have no clue.
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Old 11-04-22, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Changes in the seat tube angle have NO affect on reach, since reach is the horizontal distance from a vertical line through the BB center to the top-center of the headset bearing.​​​​​
The second phrase above (i.e., after the comma) clearly shows that DaveSSS was referring to the common reach measurement on most bike geometry, not the overall reach

Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I guess you failed Trig?

Clearly, you have no clue.
See above. So perhaps this was a bit hasty?
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Old 11-04-22, 06:46 PM
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Personally, I don't worry too much about seat tube angle as it's usually easy enough to achieve my preferred saddle setback with a combination of saddle rail adjustment and seatpost setback. My current road bike has a neat flippable seat clamp which changes the seatpost setback between 13 and 25 mm.
Besides I haven't seen much variation in STA across a load of bikes I've looked at recently. They are invariably 73-73.5 deg in my size. I did see one outlier with a slacker 72.5, but it was specifically designed around an integrated zero offset seatpost.
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Old 11-04-22, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I guess you failed Trig?

Clearly, you have no clue.
Apparently, you don't understand frame reach. STA is not involved. It's also irrelevant if the saddle is always placed in the same position, relative to the BB. I'm well versed in trig.

​​​​Before frame reach, TT length was used, but the STA did affect comparisons. It does not affect frame reach comparisons.

I also keep in mind the bar height difference between a -17 stem angle and a -6, which is about 20mm. With integrated bars, the -6,7 or 8 angle is usually the only option, so I can use a smaller stack. My latest frames are only 505mm and there's 10mm of headset top cover, plus 10mm of identically shaped spacer.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-05-22 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 11-22-22, 05:10 PM
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I wonder if I'm late to the party for the OP, but here's my 2 cents (or perhaps $8,999 + tax).


I work in a bike shop where we carry Giant, Pinarello, and Specialized. Over the years we've sold some other posh brands as well, and I've ridden a few very posh bikes --albeit not a BMC.


My sharp-end bikes are exclusively Giants, and have been for some time. TCR, Propel, Revolt. Every so often I get to jonesing for something different, because different can be a lot of fun. So I test ride a different brand. And am disappointed. I have yet to ride anything that even comes close to my '21 TCR SL 0.

Yeah, there are no bad bikes from pretty much any of the big brands (Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Pinarello, etc). Even the mid-range bikes from these companies are leagues better than the bikes that were being ridden on the Grand Tours 10 years ago.

However, if you are spending 9k on something different, and you are expecting the bike to feel even close to as good as your TCR, you might be disappointed; and for $9000, that's quite a risk. So I'd really really really recommend taking an extended test ride before squeezing the trigger.

If you had nothing to compare it to, the BMC would blow your mind, without a doubt (and BMC's look very cool, without a doubt); but you're coming from a really amazing bike.


I'm at the point now where, when I'm jonesing for something different, I go for something completely different (insofar as any bikes can be completely different). Steel. Bamboo. Aluminum, Maybe something weird and fun and capable, but not necessarily high performance. Or all of those things and yes necessarily high performance.


If you do go with the BMC, I hope you'll share your thoughts. I'm interested to hear how it differs from the TCR.
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Old 11-23-22, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Baron Blubba View Post
I wonder if I'm late to the party for the OP, but here's my 2 cents (or perhaps $8,999 + tax).


I work in a bike shop where we carry Giant, Pinarello, and Specialized. Over the years we've sold some other posh brands as well, and I've ridden a few very posh bikes --albeit not a BMC.


My sharp-end bikes are exclusively Giants, and have been for some time. TCR, Propel, Revolt. Every so often I get to jonesing for something different, because different can be a lot of fun. So I test ride a different brand. And am disappointed. I have yet to ride anything that even comes close to my '21 TCR SL 0.

Yeah, there are no bad bikes from pretty much any of the big brands (Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Pinarello, etc). Even the mid-range bikes from these companies are leagues better than the bikes that were being ridden on the Grand Tours 10 years ago.

However, if you are spending 9k on something different, and you are expecting the bike to feel even close to as good as your TCR, you might be disappointed; and for $9000, that's quite a risk. So I'd really really really recommend taking an extended test ride before squeezing the trigger.

If you had nothing to compare it to, the BMC would blow your mind, without a doubt (and BMC's look very cool, without a doubt); but you're coming from a really amazing bike.


I'm at the point now where, when I'm jonesing for something different, I go for something completely different (insofar as any bikes can be completely different). Steel. Bamboo. Aluminum, Maybe something weird and fun and capable, but not necessarily high performance. Or all of those things and yes necessarily high performance.


If you do go with the BMC, I hope you'll share your thoughts. I'm interested to hear how it differs from the TCR.
Good post. Phil Gaimon (ex pro, KOM chaser) was discussing bike choice in one of his books. He said that people often ask him what is the best road bike and his view is that they are all pretty much the same at the higher end.
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Old 11-23-22, 07:00 AM
  #75  
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