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Addiction 2023.1

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Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction 2023.1

Old 01-18-23, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
You don't have to own a car to have a license.

I know life is different in big cities than it is in Flyover AutoAmerica, but it's hard to imagine being 24 and not having a license.
They're probably all riding ebikes. No license required.
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Old 01-18-23, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rjones28
$60/year is no big deal. Most of us spend more on strumpf waffles.
I agree, but for a thrifty guy like me it’s not easy to pay $60 (soon to be $80) for something that initially was free.

#BaitAndSwitch
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Addiction is all about class.
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Old 01-18-23, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo31
But, you do have to take a class, pay for it, have access to a car for taking the license test, etc. It's not just free to get. It takes some responsibility.
Driver's ed. was taught in HS at no additional cost, BITD. No charge for taking the test at the DMV either. There was a small fee for the license, however.
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Old 01-18-23, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rjones28
Driver's ed. was taught in HS at no additional cost, BITD. No charge for taking the test at the DMV either. There was a small fee for the license, however.
i actually don't think it has anything to do with not wanting to pay for it, not having enough ambition to take the class or the tests etc. a reasonably large minority of young people see driving as a negative thing, not a positive thing. they grew up stuck in traffic in the back of their frustrated parent's SUV. it also makes way more sense financially to just a rideshare app if you're only going somewhere out of walk/bike/transit a few times a week.

it's definitely a minority position, but a growing one.

Data collected from the Federal Highway Administration and analyzed by Green Car Congress showed that in 2018 approximately 61% of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driverís license, down from 80% percent in 1983. The number of 16-year-olds with licenses decreased from 46% to 25% in the same period.

The trend that began with millennials has been amplified by Generation Z, with teens citing myriad reasons for putting off or avoiding getting a driver license. Some prefer more environmentally friendly transportation options, some found driving too stressful and some just don't care about cars.
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Old 01-18-23, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo31
But, you do have to take a class, pay for it, have access to a car for taking the license test, etc. It's not just free to get. It takes some responsibility.
It's true that family income is a factor. But I got a license at 16 when I had no responsibility, or my own car.
Originally Posted by rjones28
They are each services I consume. I don't care how much effort went into producing them. I am willing to allocate some portion of my personal expenditures to each, based on the perceived value I derive from consuming them.
You're looking at this all wrong. Go to a quiet room, put on your thinking cap, and focus.
Originally Posted by mschwett
i would like to believe that americans are becoming less dependent on cars to get to and from work and basic shopping, school, etc, but unfortunately the pandemic has made a huge dent in what was 20 years of positive movement away from auto dependence.
Knox County roadways seem as busy as always.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mschwett
but interestingly, labor force participation for the 16-24 group went up from 45 to 51 percent between 2010 and 2019 after years of decline. it could be that people are simply delaying car ownership, as they've delayed (but not stopped) having kids. they're still working, but they're getting there other ways or working remotely?

i would like to believe that americans are becoming less dependent on cars to get to and from work and basic shopping, school, etc, but unfortunately the pandemic has made a huge dent in what was 20 years of positive movement away from auto dependence.
Oddly, I have a cousin who's about 30 and doesn't have his license. Shocked me. In Boston.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DougRNS
Spotting the trend is one thing, interpreting it is another. What did they say was the reason? I don't twitter.
I didn't read the article, but I can figure it out. What's also eye raising is the growing number of 85+ year olds.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
I agree, but for a thrifty guy like me itís not easy to pay $60 (soon to be $80) for something that initially was free.

#BaitAndSwitch
Do you pay to watch TV?
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Old 01-18-23, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
You're looking at this all wrong. Go to a quiet room, put on your thinking cap, and focus.


Knox County roadways seem as busy as always.
Because of all the Boomers.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rjones28
Driver's ed. was taught in HS at no additional cost, BITD. No charge for taking the test at the DMV either. There was a small fee for the license, however.
Same in my youth.

Now, a driver's ed class is about $400 in this area. The fee for the license is minimal.

I can see people not driving in places that are highly and densely populated, but around here if you don't have a license, there are very few places you can get without spending a lot of money.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
I agree, but for a thrifty guy like me itís not easy to pay $60 (soon to be $80) for something that initially was free.

#BaitAndSwitch
There's psychology to "even a dollar is much harder to extract than free, and the difference between one dollar and eighty is much smaller".

Some things are also hard to stomach paying for, even if you like them, if they're not important enough to you. Strava never met that for me - cute toy but doesn't make my rides any actual better, and all the blatant cheating on the segment leaderboards made me unwilling to cross that one dollar threshold. I'd have been willing to pay for it if there were well-curated segments with accurate activity flagging. Instead, they've wanted to add a million features I don't care about.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Oddly, I have a cousin who's about 30 and doesn't have his license. Shocked me. In Boston.
Seems reasonable.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
I didn't read the article, but I can figure it out. What's also eye raising is the growing number of 85+ year olds.
Do you work for Big Auto?
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Old 01-18-23, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rjones28
Because of all the Boomers.
No more Boomer than your average place.






Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
. Strava never met that for me
Same.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Oddly, I have a cousin who's about 30 and doesn't have his license. Shocked me. In Boston.
That's not surprising, I bet there's a majority percentage of kids who grew up in a big city and didn't get a license til late in life. There is no need if you can get around just fine on public transportation. I didn't get a license until I was going out of state to college at the age of 21, and I didn't get my first car until 5 years later. Just wasn't needed (until I got tired of renting cars to go to the pool parties in the suburbs).
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Old 01-18-23, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
You want to compare the two () then compare the product you're paying for.
Just get a Bloomberg terminal, then your WSJ and Strava subscription costs will become negligible in comparison
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Old 01-18-23, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Oddly, I have a cousin who's about 30 and doesn't have his license. Shocked me. In Boston.
my wife is (like me) mid 40s and while she has a license, she doesn't drive. hasn't for a decade or more. i drive for family trips out of town and occasional errands so our kids are certainly more than familiar and comfortable with cars, but it's very hard for me to imagine my oldest daughter wanting to get a driver's license in a few years. i imagine she'll continue walking, riding her bike, taking transit, and add ride shares once we're OK with her doing that by herself.

the great irony of this site (which is called "BIKE forums" lol) is that i was accused by a frequent poster of being a "trustafarian" because we don't drive much and i disagree with the notion that it's essential. it's a choice, which becomes harder and harder depending on other choices. the inherent bias towards the car as the only way to live in america is incredibly strong, even on a site about bikes. no trust fund, we've worked pretty much every working day of our adult lives.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
I didn't read the article, but I can figure it out. What's also eye raising is the growing number of 85+ year olds.
My goal is to make it to 85, like my dad, RIP. I'm not sure I'm going to make it. Oh well.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rjones28
$60/year is no big deal. Most of us spend more on strumpf waffles.
That's about $110 - $120/year for me at current exchange rate. I'd prefer to spend that much on stroopwafels or chocolate.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mschwett
my wife is (like me) mid 40s and while she has a license, she doesn't drive. hasn't for a decade or more. i drive for family trips out of town and occasional errands so our kids are certainly more than familiar and comfortable with cars, but it's very hard for me to imagine my oldest daughter wanting to get a driver's license in a few years. i imagine she'll continue walking, riding her bike, taking transit, and add ride shares once we're OK with her doing that by herself.

the great irony of this site (which is called "BIKE forums" lol) is that i was accused by a frequent poster of being a "trustafarian" because we don't drive much and i disagree with the notion that it's essential. it's a choice, which becomes harder and harder depending on other choices. the inherent bias towards the car as the only way to live in america is incredibly strong, even on a site about bikes. no trust fund, we've worked pretty much every working day of our adult lives.
In contrast, we live in a suburban/semi-rural area where cars are indispensable. Both kids had a car and keys handed to them when they hit their 16th birthday. Ride share is impractical. Walking and biking to destinations is out of the question due to traffic flows, speeds, and congestion. I live 4 miles from my office, and will not ride to work because it is not safe to do so.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:50 PM
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Eagle aero.

Had a productive day yesterday at a new (for me) eagle spot just 15 mins from my house.


Apologies for the watermark. I don't mind people stealing my old stuff, but not my new stuff. Once I busted a guy in Foo's photography thread who had stolen somebody's entire portfolio and was posting them like they were his.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyD
Eagle aero.

Had a productive day yesterday at a new (for me) eagle spot just 15 mins from my house.


Apologies for the watermark. I don't mind people stealing my old stuff, but not my new stuff. Once I busted a guy in Foo's photography thread who had stolen somebody's entire portfolio and was posting them like they were his.
Nice! Nailed the eye.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyD
My goal is to make it to 85, like my dad, RIP. I'm not sure I'm going to make it. Oh well.
You and me both, Brother.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyD
Eagle aero.

Had a productive day yesterday at a new (for me) eagle spot just 15 mins from my house.


Apologies for the watermark. I don't mind people stealing my old stuff, but not my new stuff. Once I busted a guy in Foo's photography thread who had stolen somebody's entire portfolio and was posting them like they were his.
Nice. Very nice.
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Old 01-18-23, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mschwett
i actually don't think it has anything to do with not wanting to pay for it, not having enough ambition to take the class or the tests etc. a reasonably large minority of young people see driving as a negative thing, not a positive thing. they grew up stuck in traffic in the back of their frustrated parent's SUV. it also makes way more sense financially to just a rideshare app if you're only going somewhere out of walk/bike/transit a few times a week.

it's definitely a minority position, but a growing one.
I've heard some famous writer in ancient Rome or Greece complained about how the younger generation was a bunch of lazy slackers lacking the ambition of his generation, so either ambition and drive have been in constant decline for thousands of years, or old people throughout history have been pissing on The Younger Generation forever.

When I was a ute, I lived out in the sticks. No place to get fast food - teenager fuel - unless you drove 8 miles into Gettysburg. Also nothing to do, unless you drove somewhere. 8 miles to the nearest library, and no real bookstores. 8 miles to the one movie theater, which always got the new movies weeks later than every place else. One record player, so if you wanted to listen to music, everyone had to be okay with it, but that was fine because there weren't any record stores nearby either. 8 channels on TV, of which 3 came in fuzzy, and of course only one TV.

By contrast, my sons live within 1/2 mile of a mall with multiple food options. They can get virtually any music or video entertainment, mostly free. There's a bookstore down the street, but of course you can now get any book online, if you're even inclined to read. Near the mall they can catch a train that will take them anywhere from San Francisco to San Jose. The Younger Boy plays D&D, generally in person with his buds before the Pandemic, but they were able to do it all virtually for most of the last 3 years. He can also get to work and back using that train I mentioned. The Older Boy walks 2 miles to work, though generally I pick him up in the evenings since I don't want him walking through the unlit park where we know there are mountain lions.

Sure, having a drivers license would be very useful, but when I was growing up it was downright VITAL, unless you were basically a hermit, like my older sister (who didn't get a license till her 30s). It's not that The Younger Generation are lazy or shirking responsibility. It's that the world has changed a lot. For better, or for worse? That's a value judgement.
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