garysol1 

Seriously contemplating purchasing a new set of ZIPP 303S with the 23mm hookless rim design for my BMC Roadmachine. I would love to hear from people who own this wheel about your positive or negative experiences with this wheel and what tires and PSI you have been running. Thank you!!

msu2001la

I own the 303S. They've been great. I have been running 28mm Conti GP5000 S TR's for road riding. I go about 60psi on these (tubeless). I also use these wheels for CX and gravel, and run a variety of 33-35mm tubeless tires on them. For CX racing I've gone as low as 25psi on tubeless setups with minimal issues. (I did have one tire burp when trying to run lower than 25psi once).

Tubeless setup/install is pretty easy on these. Tires seem to go on/off easier than other tubeless wheels I've had. I know some people get worked up about the hookless design, but most tubeless road tires are hookless compatible now, so on a practical level there's no issue.

The wheels are great in terms of performance. They're reasonably light, the wider rim size works well with 28mm road tires and larger gravel/CX tires. I feel like my bike carves into corners more on these wheels than the stock alloy wheels - no idea if that's due to the design or just a perception. The rear hub is a bit noisy, but not obnoxiously loud.

I was also considering something from Light Bicycle which would save a few bucks, but after doing some research the Zipp lifetime warranty was a selling point for me.

msu2001la

Just one other thought - these wheels can be used with tubes (I've never actually done this but am told it works fine) but I think due to the pressure limitation of hookless (72psi) if you are intending to only run tubed narrow road tires at higher pressures, I'd probably look for other (hooked) options.

I think the wider hookless design makes more sense for someone who is committed to tubeless and wider tire sizes.

terrymorse 

Still waiting for a sensible explanation of why to choose hookless.

DaveSSS 

I've had the 303s wheels for a little over a year. I've used 28mm and 30mm Pirelli P-zero tubeless tires. They've been great except when the winds get gusty on some of my mountain descents. They can be hard to handle. Someday the rim tape will need replaced. I've decided to use 29mm deep rims with 25mm internal width that require no rim tape, from BTLOS. They're considerably lighter, but not as aero. I've got one set in use with 28mm Michelin tires that measure 31mm on these wheels. I just ordered a second set for about $800 with a discount code CNY23 that covers the freight and a little more. I use the Zipp pressure calculator for a suggested tire pressure.

Tubes can be used to get home if a tire gets a large puncture that sealant won't fix, but it doesn't make much sense to use a tube with a tubeless tire all the time. If tubeless and hookless makes you nervous, don't buy them.

https://btlos.com/ar-clincher-hook-less-carbon-wheels

DaveSSS 

Using a wider rim, the tire pressure that's needed will be lower and you'll get a better ride. I only need 52/55 psi with 25mm IW rims and 28mm tires. I have 19mm IW hooked tubeless wheels with a suggested pressure of 62/65 psi with 28mm tires. Tubed tires on 17mm IW rims with 28mm tires have a suggested pressure of 66/70. Pinch flats are more likely.

Caliwild

I have the 303S wheels on my Santa Cruz Stigmata gravel bike and run them with the Zipp 700x40 tires (see pic below). They've been solid, sound great, and look sexy. My only complaint is that they're a tad heavy but they're overbuilt for gravel use as well. On my BMC Roadmachine, I went with the Enve SES 3.4 AR wheels and have zero regrets (they're obviously more expensive than the Zipps, but well worth it IMO).

msu2001la

I think the sensible explanation here is that you can get a 45mm deep 1500g aero/carbon wheelset from a name brand company like Zipp for $1300.

If Zipp were going to make a hooked rim version of this wheel it would be heavier and/or cost more, and the hooked rim would only benefit those wanting to run narrower tires at higher pressures.

datlas 

Cheaper and easier to manufacture the rims, and lighter. Isn't that enough??

I am still waiting for a sensible explanation of why to choose tubeless, but that's a different thread.

msu2001la

Flat protection?

I think for 28mm and narrower road tires there really aren't a ton of benefits to tubeless beyond flat protection. I like 28mm tubeless for road, but run these at basically the same PSI that I'd run with tubes (60-65psi) so there's not a discernable difference in comfort, and any differences in rolling resistance seems marginal at best.

For higher volume tires the difference starts to become a lot more noticable. I can run my tubeless CX tires much lower than I can a tubed setup. I assume the same would apply to high volume road tires.

garysol1 

It has allowed Zipp to make a rim strong enough to come with a included lifetime warranty against any damage.

phrantic09

I have 303S- I run anything from 28s to 40s on them and have been incredibly satisfied.

datlas 

Yeah, I know. In my case, I run 25mm and get a flat every 6 months or 5000 miles, so I have not gone through the hassle of adopting tubeless. I know it's viable and makes more sense if you get lots of flats and/or want to run wider tires/lower pressure. But not worth it for me.

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

SoSmellyAir

Sigh. The cabling on my Stigmata is so much messier than yours.

Caliwild

Hey, don't give me any credit for it! My LBS mechanic is pretty darn great...

DaveSSS 

What's missing here is a comparison of rim width. Hooked rims for tubed only tires may only be 17-19mm wide, while hookless rims may be 23-25mm wide and used at pressures of up to 10psi lower. That's exactly what I've done when changing from a 19mm hooked 2-way Fulcrum rim to a new 25mm hookless. I use 52psi instead of 62 and get a better ride.

garysol1 

Well I went and done it. My 303s wheels, Ultegra rotors and cassette and a pair of GP5000TR tires will be in on Friday!

Caliwild

Nice! Great choice on wheels, as well as the tires.

tomato coupe

Not really relevant to his "why hookless" question. You can buy both hooked and hookless wheels with 25 mm internal width.

msu2001la

You can still have hooks on a wide rim, but you probably don't need them because the pressures are lower. Zipp (and Enve) see the trend in tire size/pressure and they also know that hookless rims are cheaper and more simple to make. Zipp has cooked up some marketing speak on smoothing the transition from tire to rim as another benefit, but the bottom line is that hookless is cheaper to build.

From a consumer perspective, I'd rather pay $1300 for a hookless Zipp 303S wheelset that is limited to 73psi and "hookless compatible tires", vs paying more for a hooked version that would work with any tire and be rated for higher pressures. I'm running the same hookless compatible tires at 60psi on either set, and I have no concerns about my tires spontaneously blowing off the rims.

phrantic09

Right- pretty much all of the “performance” oriented tubeless tires are now hookless compatible

Jrasero

I agree. I always downvoted for this but hookless is crap. In essence yeah the wheels are indeed lighter but once you account for valves, sealant, and the heavy ass tubeless tires, a hookless wheelset can weigh just as much if not more than a wheelset with latex tubes. Secondly the whole idea of running a race bike with skinny tires hookless and at 72 psi or less is kind of crazy. Hookless is great on larger tires for gravel and MTB but inherently hookless is simply less secure. Oh then factor in the cost and availability of hookless tires and I just don't get why hookless is a thing

Jrasero

Zipp name ok, $1300 great, but 1500g for a carbon wheelset is nothing special.

Again if the Zipp name and I will say LBS warranty and CS matter to you then yeah at $1300 these are fine for gravel but there are cheaper, lighter, and or better performing wheels if you aren't looking for a name brand LBS experience

DaveSSS 

BTLOS WAR 44 are a little lighter at 1433g with Bitex 312 hubs and cheaper at around $820 if a coupon code Lis used to cover the freight. What makes some other wheel better performing?

DaveSSS 

Hookless still comes up with a suggested pressure that's 4psi lower, with the same 25mm IW. Depending on the brand, hookless is all that's offered. Buy some other brand and use a little more pressure I guess. I believe that there's also an alleged aerodynamic advantage to hookless. Users can buy whichever they want, if someone offers it. I'm buying hookless.