expecting payment for damage, bad trend
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
expecting payment for damage, bad trend
I see here and elsewhere, even in local races, people that crash out seem to be expecting payment for their damages. I believe this is wrong and is a bad trend for these reasons:
1. We all know the risks when we race or ride close in paceline situations.
2. A lot of times it is a chain reaction or matter of opinion whose "fault" the crash was.
3. We have different levels of spending on bikes. If I can afford to lose $1000 in a crash I ride that level bike. If I ride with a dude with $5,000 bike, am I required to buy that bike in a crash? Do the guys riding sub $2000 bikes exclude the dude with $5000 bike because we are afraid of being asked to pay for it?
4. Some think that insurance is a magic source for bike repairs. Some don't have insurance, many of us think insurance is to be used for catastrophic losses. Insurance brings in the lawyers trying to reassign blame and recapture dollars. I love lawyers.
For these reasons I say ride what you bring, understand the risks, ride only with those you feel comfortable taking the risk with and keep your mouth shut after the inevidable crash. That's what I do.
1. We all know the risks when we race or ride close in paceline situations.
2. A lot of times it is a chain reaction or matter of opinion whose "fault" the crash was.
3. We have different levels of spending on bikes. If I can afford to lose $1000 in a crash I ride that level bike. If I ride with a dude with $5,000 bike, am I required to buy that bike in a crash? Do the guys riding sub $2000 bikes exclude the dude with $5000 bike because we are afraid of being asked to pay for it?
4. Some think that insurance is a magic source for bike repairs. Some don't have insurance, many of us think insurance is to be used for catastrophic losses. Insurance brings in the lawyers trying to reassign blame and recapture dollars. I love lawyers.
For these reasons I say ride what you bring, understand the risks, ride only with those you feel comfortable taking the risk with and keep your mouth shut after the inevidable crash. That's what I do.
#2
Elitist Jackass
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,262
Bikes: Cannondale 2.8, Specialized S-works E5 road, GT Talera
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
ive yet to hear of any one expecting payment, is this starting to be the norm??
#3
more ape than man
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: nyc
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
in an accident with an automobile i sure as heck expect payment if it's not my fault. it hasn't occured to me that i should expect payment in a crash with another cyclist. and like smoothie, i wasn't aware that was the norm.
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
been cropping up in some of the threads on this board. also, local race board a guy is asking "who crashed me out, I would like to know to get an apology etc..." I wonder what the "etc." means?
#5
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Never heard of it. USCF race you sign a release stating you accept the risks. On a club ride and somebody crashes you? If the guy was a complete twit I may loose my cool and yell some abuse....
The good news is I can pick out the complete twits before they ever turn a pedal....and stay clear of them
The good news is I can pick out the complete twits before they ever turn a pedal....and stay clear of them
#6
I am turning roadie
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Toronto Ontario Canada
Posts: 43
Bikes: Giant TCR TT team once, Kona Mokomoko, Schwinn Moab Disc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Whenever you race your car on a track or in a closed circuit you are not covered by insurance (under most policies).'
I would think the same logic applies for biking, you race - its your risk.
my $.02
I would think the same logic applies for biking, you race - its your risk.
my $.02
#8
cab horn
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,353
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 26 Times
in
19 Posts
Most recreational clubs have third party insurance. Meaning if you cause a crash you do not have to pay for it. However on uninsured ad hoc rides. You are open to being your ass sued.
#9
SNARKY MEMBER
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Austin
Posts: 2,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Originally Posted by bikerski
I see here and elsewhere, even in local races, people that crash out seem to be expecting payment for their damages. I believe this is wrong and is a bad trend for these reasons:
1. We all know the risks when we race or ride close in paceline situations.
2. A lot of times it is a chain reaction or matter of opinion whose "fault" the crash was.
3. We have different levels of spending on bikes. If I can afford to lose $1000 in a crash I ride that level bike. If I ride with a dude with $5,000 bike, am I required to buy that bike in a crash? Do the guys riding sub $2000 bikes exclude the dude with $5000 bike because we are afraid of being asked to pay for it?
4. Some think that insurance is a magic source for bike repairs. Some don't have insurance, many of us think insurance is to be used for catastrophic losses. Insurance brings in the lawyers trying to reassign blame and recapture dollars. I love lawyers.
For these reasons I say ride what you bring, understand the risks, ride only with those you feel comfortable taking the risk with and keep your mouth shut after the inevidable crash. That's what I do.
1. We all know the risks when we race or ride close in paceline situations.
2. A lot of times it is a chain reaction or matter of opinion whose "fault" the crash was.
3. We have different levels of spending on bikes. If I can afford to lose $1000 in a crash I ride that level bike. If I ride with a dude with $5,000 bike, am I required to buy that bike in a crash? Do the guys riding sub $2000 bikes exclude the dude with $5000 bike because we are afraid of being asked to pay for it?
4. Some think that insurance is a magic source for bike repairs. Some don't have insurance, many of us think insurance is to be used for catastrophic losses. Insurance brings in the lawyers trying to reassign blame and recapture dollars. I love lawyers.
For these reasons I say ride what you bring, understand the risks, ride only with those you feel comfortable taking the risk with and keep your mouth shut after the inevidable crash. That's what I do.
By the way, the homeowners policy has no exclusions about bike races in any state I am aware of.
#10
Blast from the Past
So I flat, go down in front of you in a turn, then have to pay for your bike after you run me over??? This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. And would spell the end of racing if carried to it's extreme (which never happens in to good ol USA).
Guess I could counter sue you for "Following too closely" for the speed and road conditions, and for my "Pain and Suffering". Any lawyers on the Board?
Guess I could counter sue you for "Following too closely" for the speed and road conditions, and for my "Pain and Suffering". Any lawyers on the Board?
#11
That darn Yankee
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: West West Fort Worth
Posts: 4,284
Bikes: Mongoose XR-100, Eros Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That's why the USCF and the few club agreements i've seen force you to sign certain disclaimers.
#12
cycle-dog spot
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,538
Bikes: Look, Niner, Ellsworth, Norco, Litespeed
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This seems to be a closely related concept to: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
If you're gonna cry like Nancy Kerrigan if your bike gets an owie, stay away from group rides and races, because its gonna happen.
And people wonder why I ride a POS bike...
-Z
If you're gonna cry like Nancy Kerrigan if your bike gets an owie, stay away from group rides and races, because its gonna happen.
And people wonder why I ride a POS bike...
-Z
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 516
Bikes: 2002 Bianchi Veloce 2005 Gary Fisher Marlin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Voodoo76
So I flat, go down in front of you in a turn, then have to pay for your bike after you run me over??? This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. And would spell the end of racing if carried to it's extreme (which never happens in to good ol USA).
Guess I could counter sue you for "Following too closely" for the speed and road conditions, and for my "Pain and Suffering". Any lawyers on the Board?
Guess I could counter sue you for "Following too closely" for the speed and road conditions, and for my "Pain and Suffering". Any lawyers on the Board?
#14
Blast from the Past
Originally Posted by ckleps
Or is it because from time to time smart jurors realize that a wrong was in fact committed and damages are due. I'd say its number three and crashing during a race doesn't fit number three.
#15
SNARKY MEMBER
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Austin
Posts: 2,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Frequently when someonein this forum crashes their cf bike and totals it, there are long threads about getting the manufacturer to replace it. If I am on a group ride and someone does something really stupid that totals out my 1500 frame, why should the manufacturer pay for it, but not the person who caused the damage.
Whenever anyone dies in a NASCAR or Indycar race, there are usually lawsuits all over the place. All the talk about whether Dale Earnhart's seatbelt failed wasn't purely academic.
As a general rule, juries get it right. There are a very small percentage of cases that they come up with something stupid, those are the ones that you read about in the paper. A jury verdict for $5000 in a car accident isn't news.
The right to a jury in a civil case is protected by the Constitution.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Whenever anyone dies in a NASCAR or Indycar race, there are usually lawsuits all over the place. All the talk about whether Dale Earnhart's seatbelt failed wasn't purely academic.
As a general rule, juries get it right. There are a very small percentage of cases that they come up with something stupid, those are the ones that you read about in the paper. A jury verdict for $5000 in a car accident isn't news.
The right to a jury in a civil case is protected by the Constitution.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
#16
Senior Member
There also seems to be a trend that money from insurance is "free money" that doesn't cost anyone. I'm all for insurance for legitimate claims, but lately (not necessarily in cycling) it seems to be "get whatever you can from the insurance company however you can scam it". And then of course, complain when the rates go up. Just my insurance rant. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 516
Bikes: 2002 Bianchi Veloce 2005 Gary Fisher Marlin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TassR700
There also seems to be a trend that money from insurance is "free money" that doesn't cost anyone. I'm all for insurance for legitimate claims, but lately (not necessarily in cycling) it seems to be "get whatever you can from the insurance company however you can scam it". And then of course, complain when the rates go up. Just my insurance rant. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
#18
Meow!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Riverside, California
Posts: 6,019
Bikes: Trek 2100 Road Bike, Full DA10, Cervelo P2K TT bike, Full DA10, Giant Boulder Steel Commuter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
You choose to ride it you assume all risks in its use.
There is only one time in which another ride is responsable for damages to another bike... Deliberate damage... i.e. you take anothers bike and throw it to the ground, run over it with your car, intentionally crash the rider causing the bike to break, etc.
I have seen my fair share of bikes that have broken, been distroyed, broken, etc in a crash. In a race, group ride, etc even with a small crash it is many times hard to tell who or what was at fault. This is expecially true in a peloton situation where a crash in the front takes out the whole field (like at the paramount criterium). The same thing is like saying that I can take my car to the track, race and then try and collect insurance when I crash into the wall...
I ride what I feel I want to ride in a race. If someone was to crash into me and say taco a wheel I am the one who is going to have to pay mavic 400 dollars for a new wheel. Now manufacturers tend to be nice and give crash discounts also which helps keep cost down.
If people like insurance so much then make "bike" insurance, then it is your fault if you crash and have no insurance. Most of the time it is hard to detemine who is at fault in a crash, I can not wait... trying to determine the cause.
Now if my bike was stolen that would be a different story.
There is only one time in which another ride is responsable for damages to another bike... Deliberate damage... i.e. you take anothers bike and throw it to the ground, run over it with your car, intentionally crash the rider causing the bike to break, etc.
I have seen my fair share of bikes that have broken, been distroyed, broken, etc in a crash. In a race, group ride, etc even with a small crash it is many times hard to tell who or what was at fault. This is expecially true in a peloton situation where a crash in the front takes out the whole field (like at the paramount criterium). The same thing is like saying that I can take my car to the track, race and then try and collect insurance when I crash into the wall...
I ride what I feel I want to ride in a race. If someone was to crash into me and say taco a wheel I am the one who is going to have to pay mavic 400 dollars for a new wheel. Now manufacturers tend to be nice and give crash discounts also which helps keep cost down.
If people like insurance so much then make "bike" insurance, then it is your fault if you crash and have no insurance. Most of the time it is hard to detemine who is at fault in a crash, I can not wait... trying to determine the cause.
Now if my bike was stolen that would be a different story.
__________________
Just your average club rider... :)
Just your average club rider... :)
#19
Raising the Abyss
Originally Posted by ckleps
unfortunately this seems to be a general rule for many,"if you can get away with it then its okay." I overheard someone talking about a scam they read in the paper and they said, "Well if these guys were smart enough to scam this old lady they deserve to keep the money" Seems to be the same as the attitude you mentioned above. oops, now I've become an accomplish to his hijaking.
__________________
"...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."
"...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
According to a couple of lawyers a play soccer with, an injury or damage incurred participating in activity that has inherent dangers, it would fall under "assumed risk" unless there is clear negligence involved.
We had a situation where someone broke another person’s leg during a pickup game. It wasn’t a dirty play or even really a foul. It was just one of those things that can happen playing soccer. There were no signed waivers or anything because it wasn’t officially organized, so people started asking about legalities (after the ambulance left), and both lawyers said sure you can sue anybody for anything, but it wouldn’t go anywhere. In this instance no one would have sued anyway, but it’s nice to know there is some protection if a legitimate accident happens.
I don’t know if this applies in every state, or even for certain if it really is a protection in Tennessee. I hope I never have to find out, but I certainly hope it is.
We had a situation where someone broke another person’s leg during a pickup game. It wasn’t a dirty play or even really a foul. It was just one of those things that can happen playing soccer. There were no signed waivers or anything because it wasn’t officially organized, so people started asking about legalities (after the ambulance left), and both lawyers said sure you can sue anybody for anything, but it wouldn’t go anywhere. In this instance no one would have sued anyway, but it’s nice to know there is some protection if a legitimate accident happens.
I don’t know if this applies in every state, or even for certain if it really is a protection in Tennessee. I hope I never have to find out, but I certainly hope it is.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 516
Bikes: 2002 Bianchi Veloce 2005 Gary Fisher Marlin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hill Climber
According to a couple of lawyers a play soccer with, an injury or damage incurred participating in activity that has inherent dangers, it would fall under "assumed risk" unless there is clear negligence involved.
We had a situation where someone broke another person’s leg during a pickup game. It wasn’t a dirty play or even really a foul. It was just one of those things that can happen playing soccer. There were no signed waivers or anything because it wasn’t officially organized, so people started asking about legalities (after the ambulance left), and both lawyers said sure you can sue anybody for anything, but it wouldn’t go anywhere. In this instance no one would have sued anyway, but it’s nice to know there is some protection if a legitimate accident happens.
I don’t know if this applies in every state, or even for certain if it really is a protection in Tennessee. I hope I never have to find out, but I certainly hope it is.
We had a situation where someone broke another person’s leg during a pickup game. It wasn’t a dirty play or even really a foul. It was just one of those things that can happen playing soccer. There were no signed waivers or anything because it wasn’t officially organized, so people started asking about legalities (after the ambulance left), and both lawyers said sure you can sue anybody for anything, but it wouldn’t go anywhere. In this instance no one would have sued anyway, but it’s nice to know there is some protection if a legitimate accident happens.
I don’t know if this applies in every state, or even for certain if it really is a protection in Tennessee. I hope I never have to find out, but I certainly hope it is.
Assumed risk is something that governs lawsuits like this just about every time. Now lets say that the biking accident was caused by someone who drank a bottle of whiskey before the race and did something idiotic. Getting hit by a drunk cyclist doing something stupid during a race probably isn't considered a normal assumed risk and in this case I don't think it would be unfair to collect damages from the drunk racer.
#23
Huachuca Rider
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 4,275
Bikes: Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This whole thread is somewhat discriminatory in character. Do you really mean to say that the poor soul who crashes all by his or herself has no recourse to sue? That's unamerican too. Isn't it?
__________________
Just Peddlin' Around
Just Peddlin' Around
#24
Senior Member
Originally Posted by webist
This whole thread is somewhat discriminatory in character. Do you really mean to say that the poor soul who crashes all by his or herself has no recourse to sue? That's unamerican too. Isn't it?
#25
Huachuca Rider
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 4,275
Bikes: Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
Surely something caused the crash. Rain? Sue the weatherman. Railroad tracks? Sue Amtrak. Wet leaves, gravel, etc.? Sue the city for not cleaning it up. Just plain fell because you forgot how to ride a bike? Sue the bike company. Unless you ride in a vacuum you should always assume someone else is at fault
__________________
Just Peddlin' Around
Just Peddlin' Around