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Greg Lemond is my hero

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Greg Lemond is my hero

Old 08-07-23, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Smaug1
In the original post. Someone posted it again in Post #17.
That's not the documentary, but yeah searching the title hasn't given me a place or platform to view it yet. Might be in between the theater time and the home theater time.
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Old 08-07-23, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight
That's not the documentary, but yeah searching the title hasn't given me a place or platform to view it yet. Might be in between the theater time and the home theater time.
Oh, he was referring to the movie.

It's called The Last Rider, and was released in limited theatres only. (as it would have a limited appeal) I found it in a theatre 30 miles away (in a cycling-heavy town, Highland Park, IL) and went to go see it. Before that, I looked for it on DVD or streaming, but couldn't find it.

This Google search result link has trailers on YouTube. Hopefully, it will come out in hardcopy or at least downloadable purchase format sometime soon.
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Old 08-07-23, 10:42 AM
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Edit: By the way, the movie was great. It was more balanced, as it had a lot of different points of view; not just Lemond's and the interviewer. There was a lot of his wife, so we could see how the home life was for him and other cyclists, too. It was also well-edited, so that no one went off on tangents.

If it becomes available on hardcopy, I will surely buy it.
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Old 08-07-23, 11:30 AM
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Thanks for that link. I was going to reply to roughly the same effect, but it's clear that the "my hero Lance doped and therefore so did Greg (and Chris Froome, etc.)" people are happy with their beliefs, so discussion is pointless.
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Old 08-07-23, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Smaug1
Me neither.


Me too! Everything I've seen on him so far just cuts off after the 1989 TdF, as it was so dramatic they spent all their time on it.


Being the arrogant twit he was, he was thinking he would beat Lemond on a regular bike with no helmet and a pony tail and that would be another bragging point later.


Well, 5'10 and 148 is thin, (especially considering the leg muscle) but nothing like Jonas Vingegaard @ 5'9 and 132 lbs. The current guys give up some power to keep weight low with a resultant higher power:weight ratio. Lemond doesn't like that idea. Lemond's arms were positively RIPPED compared to Vingegaard's, for example. Part of that was having only 2-3% body fat and normal muscle mass.
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Old 08-08-23, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Great movie; Triplets of Belleville.

Highest rating I've ever seen on Rotten Tomatoes:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the..._of_belleville

***************************

Long as we're veering off-topic a bit, YouTube recommended this for me, and I quite enjoyed it. Cyclists raiding cafes for beer and wine, then sticking it in their back jersey pockets. When Americans started to try to seriously compete in the TdF, they had to knock that stuff off!
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Old 08-08-23, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Smaug1
Great movie; Triplets of Belleville.

Highest rating I've ever seen on Rotten Tomatoes:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the..._of_belleville

***************************

Long as we're veering off-topic a bit, YouTube recommended this for me, and I quite enjoyed it. Cyclists raiding cafes for beer and wine, then sticking it in their back jersey pockets. When Americans started to try to seriously compete in the TdF, they had to knock that stuff off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UhT6-GntcY
One of the things I like about that movie is the grotesque physiques the riders have. When someone mentioned the big legs/slight upper bodies of racers, I immediately thought of the Triplets. Although I absolutely know that most (all?) successful pro racers are smart and knowledgeable, the way the Triplets imply the racers are just single-minded, thoughtless machines with big legs and nothing else, I also thought was funny.
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Old 08-08-23, 03:02 PM
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Comparing different riders on their weights and relative "skinniness" - well we people vary so much each rider has to deal with what he was given. Lemond rode at a weight that worked for him. I'm considerably taller than him but I raced lighter. 6'1/2" in those days. At 145 I was as good as I was ever going to be. Adding weight might have helped my power a bit but at real expense to my big gift - climbing. I was a pure mountain goat. I could have trained for power sprints but that just would have made me a better sprinting mountain goat. (Would you pay to see a mountain goat lining up for the 100 yard dash against a puma?)
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Old 08-08-23, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
One of the things I like about that movie is the grotesque physiques the riders have. When someone mentioned the big legs/slight upper bodies of racers, I immediately thought of the Triplets. Although I absolutely know that most (all?) successful pro racers are smart and knowledgeable, the way the Triplets imply the racers are just single-minded, thoughtless machines with big legs and nothing else, I also thought was funny.
Who are "the triplets" ?
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Old 08-08-23, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by nomadmax
Who are "the triplets" ?
Sorry, my shorthand for The Triplets of Belleville - the movie referenced a couple of posts above. Great movie, I think it's still on Youtube.
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Old 08-09-23, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
...At this point we have athletes that cannot use an over the counter decongestant but are allowed to use a asthma inhaler which greatly improves performance. Athletes use low oxygen tents to up their red blood cell count and use transfusions to add more blood before a race and other means to have an edge over competitors who are doing the same...
I'm skeptical about the advantages to asthma medications as a PED.

Over the years I've heard allegations (usually from anonymous commenters on YouTube and elsewhere) that LeMond used asthma inhalers during races, but I've never found any confirmation. I've watched hours of video, read everything I could find... nada. And the accusers didn't say whether he was supposedly using Beta2-adrenergic agonists like albuterol, or epinephrine inhalers like Primatene Mist. I've used both and have never noticed any performance enhancement, other than being able to breathe. And Primatene Mist is extremely irritating to my respiratory system so I use it only for emergencies.

I do recall seeing Eddie Merckx, just before his hour record ride, use a typical over the counter nasal inhaler (I don't recall whether it was the tube dispenser or small jar of greasy stuff), like the Vicks type that was commonly available in the 1960s-'70s, which contained a tiny amount of an amphetamine. I'm still doubtful about how much enhancement that tiny amount would offer for an hour ride. I used it years ago when it was available and it had less kick than a cup of coffee, but it cleared up nasal congestion.

Anyway, as I said, I'm skeptical about the use of inhalers as a PED. I've needed bronchial and nasal inhalers for years for asthma and severe nasal congestion (the latter due in part to a deviated septum from my boxing days -- courtesy of sparring my little brother who had a glass jaw but sure could throw a punch). I'm prone to exercise induced bronchospasms, depending on the weather, airborne contaminants, etc. I haven't seen any improvement in my performance from using any asthma or allergy meds. But I use them as prescribed, not in massive doses.

I mostly use albuterol as a preventive, which is comparable to salbutamol and others associated with suspicion of achievements by Alberto Contador, Chris Froome and others. These are said to improve lean muscle mass, making them at most a marginal PED, nowhere near as effective as testosterone, EPO or blood doping. And it would take a comparatively massive dose to reach the blood concentrations alleged against Contador and Froome. You can't reach that level with a prescription inhaler, unless maybe it's possible by inhaling an entire container in a single day. If they did take advantage of the TUE loophole to cover for the use of asthma meds, they probably ingested large doses rather than inhaling it. Inhaling carries certain risks that might outweigh any marginal benefits.

Assuming a clean peloton, a single elite rider might enjoy a tiny edge from using a massive amount of albuterol as a PED. But it won't be anything like the bad old, good old glory days of the 1990s and early 2000s.

I'm inclined to believe that LeMond was riding clean by any standards. He certainly knew by 1991 that something was radically different in the peloton when he was riding the same way but being dropped by guys he used to beat. If he was desperate enough to prolong his TdF winning streak he had every opportunity by 1992 or 1993. In the same position I probably would have taken whatever the other guys were using, just for one more shot at a win. There's no indication LeMond did.
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Old 08-09-23, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat
I'm skeptical about the advantages to asthma medications as a PED.

Over the years I've heard allegations (usually from anonymous commenters on YouTube and elsewhere) that LeMond used asthma inhalers during races, but I've never found any confirmation. I've watched hours of video, read everything I could find... nada. And the accusers didn't say whether he was supposedly using Beta2-adrenergic agonists like albuterol, or epinephrine inhalers like Primatene Mist. I've used both and have never noticed any performance enhancement, other than being able to breathe. And Primatene Mist is extremely irritating to my respiratory system so I use it only for emergencies.

I do recall seeing Eddie Merckx, just before his hour record ride, use a typical over the counter nasal inhaler (I don't recall whether it was the tube dispenser or small jar of greasy stuff), like the Vicks type that was commonly available in the 1960s-'70s, which contained a tiny amount of an amphetamine. I'm still doubtful about how much enhancement that tiny amount would offer for an hour ride. I used it years ago when it was available and it had less kick than a cup of coffee, but it cleared up nasal congestion.

Anyway, as I said, I'm skeptical about the use of inhalers as a PED. I've needed bronchial and nasal inhalers for years for asthma and severe nasal congestion (the latter due in part to a deviated septum from my boxing days -- courtesy of sparring my little brother who had a glass jaw but sure could throw a punch). I'm prone to exercise induced bronchospasms, depending on the weather, airborne contaminants, etc. I haven't seen any improvement in my performance from using any asthma or allergy meds. But I use them as prescribed, not in massive doses.

I mostly use albuterol as a preventive, which is comparable to salbutamol and others associated with suspicion of achievements by Alberto Contador, Chris Froome and others. These are said to improve lean muscle mass, making them at most a marginal PED, nowhere near as effective as testosterone, EPO or blood doping. And it would take a comparatively massive dose to reach the blood concentrations alleged against Contador and Froome. You can't reach that level with a prescription inhaler, unless maybe it's possible by inhaling an entire container in a single day. If they did take advantage of the TUE loophole to cover for the use of asthma meds, they probably ingested large doses rather than inhaling it. Inhaling carries certain risks that might outweigh any marginal benefits.

Assuming a clean peloton, a single elite rider might enjoy a tiny edge from using a massive amount of albuterol as a PED. But it won't be anything like the bad old, good old glory days of the 1990s and early 2000s.

I'm inclined to believe that LeMond was riding clean by any standards. He certainly knew by 1991 that something was radically different in the peloton when he was riding the same way but being dropped by guys he used to beat. If he was desperate enough to prolong his TdF winning streak he had every opportunity by 1992 or 1993. In the same position I probably would have taken whatever the other guys were using, just for one more shot at a win. There's no indication LeMond did.
I tend to agree. There are always going to be doping allegations against anyone who wins thanks to the past history. I see JV is now having a few fingers poked at him for winning the TdF. He has handled it very well so far but it must be very frustrating for these young guys, who are far less likely to be cheating than their predecessors.

I’m also pretty sure cheating is not in Froome’s character. They made such a big deal out of the asthma inhaler. Even if it was a marginal gain I doubt it would even offset the negative effects of asthma as a condition. Maybe Froome would have been even quicker without asthma and the inhaler.
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Old 08-11-23, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
Lance says he was clean but we have to take his word for it as it means when he was racing the drug testing was far less prevalent and far less sophisticated.
He admitted to using banned substances.

https://www.google.com/search?client...id:62ofi1lRv5E
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Old 08-11-23, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
Lance says he was clean but we have to take his word for it as it means when he was racing the drug testing was far less prevalent and far less sophisticated.
You consistently have hot takes that get universal pushback from others on here, but the comment above may be the hottest take of yours that I can remember.
There is your normal crazy views, and then there is this. Wow that is an incredibly absurd comment.

No we dont have to take his word for it.
Oprah- 'did you ever take banned substances to enhance your cycling performance?'
Armstrong- 'yes.'
Calsun- 'Lance says he3 was clean but we have to take his word for it...'

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Old 08-11-23, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19
He admitted to using banned substances.

https://www.google.com/search?client...id:62ofi1lRv5E
In 2013. 1999 he flunked a test but weaseled out using a post-dated doc's script and the UCI wanting desperately to look good and financially sound after the Festina fiasco. Later he at least once kept a drug tester waiting an hour at a surprise visit. More than 10 minutes is an automatic flunk on that test but he never saw that. He also had a UCI insider phoning him of incoming surprise tests so he had time to dilute his blood and pass the test.

All of LA's "I never tested positive" claims look pretty hollow when you know the above.
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Old 08-11-23, 10:48 AM
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I followed the Tour de France via backpack in 1990 just to watch Greg. I was one of tens of thousands of people crowding the road on Luz Ardiden, parting only when the riders were arm's length away. Greg and Indurain took minutes out of Chiapucci that day. I snuck into the VIP bleachers and watched Greg don the maillot jaune after the Lac de'Vassiviere (sp?) time trial in 1990. And I cheered with pride on the Champs E'lysee.
And at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, I got an autograph. He was there calling the races for NBC I think.

It took great courage to reject omerta and speak out against doping. It cost Greg his bicycle deal with Trek and his reputation among a generation of Armstrong fanboys.

Seems like a good guy.

Greg Lemond at the 1990 Tour de France Villard-de-Lans time trial. Greg is on a road bike with aerobars and a rear Campagnolo disk wheel. He is wearing the rainbow jersey of the World Champion.
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Old 08-12-23, 08:28 PM
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LA doped. Ulrich doped. Contador doped. Basso doped. Merckx doped. And on and on and on. I have no proof but I don't believe for a second that Lemond didn't dope. The margin between winning and losing in pro cycling is so slim that there's no way a 100% clean rider could compete with the best of the best that were doping. No way. Sure, anybody can have one big day but to consistently compete at the highest levels during the doping era you had to have been doping too. I know that's gonna hurt some feelings but the facts tell the tale. Look at the list of big names over the last 40 years that were either confirmed dopers, alleged dopers or admitted dopers. Look at how many TdF podium winners have been DQ'd.

I don't believe Lemond and I still think LA is the best pure racer to ever throw a leg over a bike. He competed against the best of the best who were also doping and he beat them over and over and over. I'm not saying LA is a decent human being. All I'm saying is he's the best bike racer I've ever seen and I started watching the TdF before Lemond came on the scene. To be fair I never saw Merckx race but even he was caught doping too.

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Old 08-12-23, 09:47 PM
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LA was an arrogant and mediocre racer prior to doping. I still remember his debut at the Tour DuPont bragging about winning the race and winning every stage. Then his first TdF where they were going to pull him before the first mountain stage so he did a solo breakaway and no one really chased because they didn't want to put out an effort before the mountains knowing LA was dropping out.

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Old 08-13-23, 05:10 PM
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Old 08-13-23, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat
I'm skeptical about the advantages to asthma medications as a PED.

Over the years I've heard allegations (usually from anonymous commenters on YouTube and elsewhere) that LeMond used asthma inhalers during races, but I've never found any confirmation. I've watched hours of video, read everything I could find... nada. And the accusers didn't say whether he was supposedly using Beta2-adrenergic agonists like albuterol, or epinephrine inhalers like Primatene Mist. I've used both and have never noticed any performance enhancement, other than being able to breathe. And Primatene Mist is extremely irritating to my respiratory system so I use it only for emergencies.

I do recall seeing Eddie Merckx, just before his hour record ride, use a typical over the counter nasal inhaler (I don't recall whether it was the tube dispenser or small jar of greasy stuff), like the Vicks type that was commonly available in the 1960s-'70s, which contained a tiny amount of an amphetamine. I'm still doubtful about how much enhancement that tiny amount would offer for an hour ride. I used it years ago when it was available and it had less kick than a cup of coffee, but it cleared up nasal congestion.

Anyway, as I said, I'm skeptical about the use of inhalers as a PED. I've needed bronchial and nasal inhalers for years for asthma and severe nasal congestion (the latter due in part to a deviated septum from my boxing days -- courtesy of sparring my little brother who had a glass jaw but sure could throw a punch). I'm prone to exercise induced bronchospasms, depending on the weather, airborne contaminants, etc. I haven't seen any improvement in my performance from using any asthma or allergy meds. But I use them as prescribed, not in massive doses.

I mostly use albuterol as a preventive, which is comparable to salbutamol and others associated with suspicion of achievements by Alberto Contador, Chris Froome and others. These are said to improve lean muscle mass, making them at most a marginal PED, nowhere near as effective as testosterone, EPO or blood doping. And it would take a comparatively massive dose to reach the blood concentrations alleged against Contador and Froome. You can't reach that level with a prescription inhaler, unless maybe it's possible by inhaling an entire container in a single day. If they did take advantage of the TUE loophole to cover for the use of asthma meds, they probably ingested large doses rather than inhaling it. Inhaling carries certain risks that might outweigh any marginal benefits.

Assuming a clean peloton, a single elite rider might enjoy a tiny edge from using a massive amount of albuterol as a PED. But it won't be anything like the bad old, good old glory days of the 1990s and early 2000s.

I'm inclined to believe that LeMond was riding clean by any standards. He certainly knew by 1991 that something was radically different in the peloton when he was riding the same way but being dropped by guys he used to beat. If he was desperate enough to prolong his TdF winning streak he had every opportunity by 1992 or 1993. In the same position I probably would have taken whatever the other guys were using, just for one more shot at a win. There's no indication LeMond did.
I think LeMond was head and shoulders above the riders of his era based on natural abilities, and he knew it. Later in his career when EPO erased that advantage, he hung on to the belief that he could still kick their butts. When he couldn't, he retired.

One outcome of the EPO era was, it screened out a generation or two of naturally gifted yet honest athletes. Names we'll never know.
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Old 08-13-23, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Sorry, my shorthand for The Triplets of Belleville - the movie referenced a couple of posts above. Great movie, I think it's still on Youtube.
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Old 08-13-23, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
I think LeMond was head and shoulders above the riders of his era based on natural abilities, and he knew it. Later in his career when EPO erased that advantage, he hung on to the belief that he could still kick their butts. When he couldn't, he retired.

One outcome of the EPO era was, it screened out a generation or two of naturally gifted yet honest athletes. Names we'll never know.

Reno-Gazette Journal August 1, 1977
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Old 08-13-23, 08:47 PM
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I had a poster of him in a time trail on my dorm wall last year. If anyone has a hi res file of his sports illustrated cover please let me know. I want to print that one out too!
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Old 08-13-23, 08:48 PM
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At the age of 15, Lemond competed in a 48 mile Senior I/II race due to administrative error. He finished second to the reigning national time trial champion John Howard...even though Lemond was on a gear restricted bicycle (for junior racers).



Reno-Gazette Journal April 12, 1977
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Old 08-13-23, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Caveman
... I still think LA is the best pure racer to ever throw a leg over a bike. He competed against the best of the best who were also doping and he beat them over and over and over. I'm not saying LA is a decent human being. All I'm saying is he's the best bike racer I've ever seen and I started watching the TdF before Lemond came on the scene. To be fair I never saw Merckx race but even he was caught doping too.
Originally Posted by Retoocs
LA was an arrogant and mediocre racer prior to doping. I still remember his debut at the Tour DuPont bragging about winning the race and winning every stage. Then his first TdF where they were going to pull him before the first mountain stage so he did a solo breakaway and no one really chased because they didn't want to put out an effort before the mountains knowing LA was dropping out.

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LA was a decent one day racer. Documented high power output. Won a World Championship long before EPO; Also had an unusual body that benefited more from EPO than most. He had both a huge engine and quite low natural hematocrit. Perfect combo to benefit from EPO; especially over the years where EPO could not be discovered by direct test so UCI assumed over 50% was doping. Some riders were naturally very close or even over and could not touch EPO without failing a test. LA was in the low 30s and could benefit from large doses and pass just fine. So, all of a sudden he was a 3 week stage racer. Trouncing guys with naturally high hematocrits who should have thrived in the mountains and the three week grind.

LA wasn't a completely mediocre racer. But before EPO, only pack fodder in a Grand Tour. Well, he would have made a good engine to tow the field a al Tim deClerc if he could have parked his ego and followed instructions.
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