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Addiction 2023.4

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction 2023.4

Old 11-11-23, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo31
That sucks.

Every time something likethat has happened to me its led to a new car.
And when stuff doesn’t happen like that it has led to a new car.
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Old 11-11-23, 09:26 AM
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Was BK really cash only 'til '93? I definitely remember using a card for bad pizza before then, can't remember on the bad burgers front.
(the second story)
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Old 11-11-23, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Albany. Well the outskirts. Yearly family visit. Plus a 15k tomorrow.

I really want to know how the seats broke.
Stockade-athon?
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Old 11-11-23, 09:29 AM
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bummer rjones28
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Old 11-11-23, 09:32 AM
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I turn 37 today! Wild. Been in my best shape the past 4 years. Losing 10 lbs had a lot to do with that.

Gonna head to the parents and have them babysit Lilly for a couple hours while Liz and I can get a couple beers and early dinner out, accompanied by a close friend of mine from HS. Baby has been fussy and cluster feeding the last three days starting in the late afternoon, so we'll see about all that. Bringing a bottle and some frozen breastmilk just in case.

4 hour ride planned for tomorrow, but again we'll have to see if the child permits.
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Old 11-11-23, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk
I turn 37 today! Wild. Been in my best shape the past 4 years. Losing 10 lbs had a lot to do with that.
I was also in my best shape in my mid-30s. Miss those days.
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Old 11-11-23, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Do you recommend it, do you see results, anything you don’t like about it.
I like it a lot. I enjoy intervals and come out in April usually I’m better shape than over the summer
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Old 11-11-23, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk
I turn 37 today! Wild. Been in my best shape the past 4 years. Losing 10 lbs had a lot to do with that.

Gonna head to the parents and have them babysit Lilly for a couple hours while Liz and I can get a couple beers and early dinner out, accompanied by a close friend of mine from HS. Baby has been fussy and cluster feeding the last three days starting in the late afternoon, so we'll see about all that. Bringing a bottle and some frozen breastmilk just in case.

4 hour ride planned for tomorrow, but again we'll have to see if the child permits.

Happy Birthday!
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Old 11-11-23, 09:59 AM
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Race team has a discussion going on about whees. The summary, 25 mm internal width wheels 30 mm deep with 28mm or 30 mm tires tubeless are faster than 50 mm wheels with 20 mm internal width with 32 mm tires tubeless.

Basically running gravel wheels on a road bike would be faster than most people’s current set up. Thoughts?
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Old 11-11-23, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Race team has a discussion going on about whees. The summary, 25 mm internal width wheels 30 mm deep with 28mm or 30 mm tires tubeless are faster than 50 mm wheels with 20 mm internal width with 32 mm tires tubeless.

Basically running gravel wheels on a road bike would be faster than most people’s current set up. Thoughts?
People better up their graphic arts skills if they want to compete with my highlighting prowess.
#ColdHardFacts
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Old 11-11-23, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by velo vol
what's the difference?
d3 ‐ d2 = 1
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Old 11-11-23, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Race team has a discussion going on about whees. The summary, 25 mm internal width wheels 30 mm deep with 28mm or 30 mm tires tubeless are faster than 50 mm wheels with 20 mm internal width with 32 mm tires tubeless.

Basically running gravel wheels on a road bike would be faster than most people’s current set up. Thoughts?
Matching tire and external rim width has been shown to be very important, possibly more so than another 20 mm on depth to reduce spoke exposure. Running 50 mm wheels with 23 c (assuming that is approximately external diameter) would be even faster, but of course no one runs 23 C anymore,

Also why the hell is there even a 20 mm internal option? This is 2023. You guys can't get wider rim 50 mm deep wheels?

But between those options I'd pick 1). You want to avoid the tire bulge at the rim. Probably with 28's; I imagine 30c would bulge on that
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Old 11-11-23, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk
Matching tire and external rim width has been shown to be very important, possibly more so than another 20 mm on depth to reduce spoke exposure. Running 50 mm wheels with 23 c (assuming that is approximately external diameter) would be even faster, but of course no one runs 23 C anymore,

Also why the hell is there even a 20 mm internal option? This is 2023. You guys can't get wider rim 50 mm deep wheels?

But between those options I'd pick 1). You want to avoid the tire bulge at the rim. Probably with 28's; I imagine 30c would bulge on that

I was planning on getting the hunt aero 34 alloy wheels for the checkpoint. 20 mm intends width now I am not sure. ICANs are 21 mm internal carbon wheels 25 mm depth.
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Old 11-11-23, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by big john
Both of my Cannondales were triples.

I look at the bottom picture and think; "another rider ( in orange) "getting dropped on a climb by John"
YMMV
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Old 11-11-23, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Race team has a discussion going on about whees. The summary, 25 mm internal width wheels 30 mm deep with 28mm or 30 mm tires tubeless are faster than 50 mm wheels with 20 mm internal width with 32 mm tires tubeless.

Basically running gravel wheels on a road bike would be faster than most people’s current set up. Thoughts?
For Reynolds sake, who is using 32 mm tires on the road?!

When it comes to reducing aero drag, all things being equal, narrow beats wide. Drag is Cd (drag coefficient) times A (frontal area), after all. Bigger frontal area = more drag.

If you've made the decision to use wider tires, you're already at an aero disadvantage. Now you have to substantially fiddle with rim geometry to reduce Cd. That means deep rim cross sections, and all the negatives that come with them.

With that knowledge in hand, it seems odd to me that anyone would choose 32 mm tires for the road. Gravel, okay. But road? I don't see it.
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Old 11-11-23, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
For Reynolds sake, who is using 32 mm tires on the road?!

When it comes to reducing aero drag, all things being equal, narrow beats wide. Drag is Cd (drag coefficient) times A (frontal area), after all. Bigger frontal area = more drag.

If you've made the decision to use wider tires, you're already at an aero disadvantage. Now you have to substantially fiddle with rim geometry to reduce Cd. That means deep rim cross sections, and all the negatives that come with them.

With that knowledge in hand, it seems odd to me that anyone would choose 32 mm tires for the road. Gravel, okay. But road? I don't see it.

Seriously, we are having this discussion again? Actually I do run 32mm on my emonda, ran them on my cervelo and would put them on my madone if I had clearance. This has been discussed to exhaustion. Evidence has shown wider tires with lower pressure is faster than 23 mm 25 mm tires at higher pressure.
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Old 11-11-23, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
For Reynolds sake, who is using 32 mm tires on the road?!

When it comes to reducing aero drag, all things being equal, narrow beats wide. Drag is Cd (drag coefficient) times A (frontal area), after all. Bigger frontal area = more drag.

If you've made the decision to use wider tires, you're already at an aero disadvantage. Now you have to substantially fiddle with rim geometry to reduce Cd. That means deep rim cross sections, and all the negatives that come with them.

With that knowledge in hand, it seems odd to me that anyone would choose 32 mm tires for the road. Gravel, okay. But road? I don't see it.
The A argument makes sense if we isolate total CdA to a wheel/rim in the wind tunnel. But does that check out if we consider the total bike + rider system, which is much wider than the tire? I'm not super sure about that. I also think that many IRL road surfaces are not good enough such that the loss in speed from a high pressure skinny tire on an imperfect surface is offset by marginal aero gains. On an indoor track? Skinny and high PSI all the way.

I think the strategy is to consider road surface first, and then choose a tires and PSI to match. Then after that, you select rim width such that the outer rim and tire casing have a flush surface. That is showing to make a big difference in testing these days. So if the road calls for 25C tires, you want 25 mm external width. If it calls for 28's, you want 28 mm external etc.
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Old 11-11-23, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Seriously, we are having this discussion again? Actually I do run 32mm on my emonda, ran them on my cervelo and would put them on my madone if I had clearance. This has been discussed to exhaustion. Evidence has shown wider tires with lower pressure is faster than 23 mm 25 mm tires at higher pressure.
that depends on surface and is not true in an absolute sense. the smoother the roads - the more narrow and high PSI. of course many IRL roads are crappy, or at least have crappy segments, hence the move towards wider.

still, I can't think of many IRL road situations any more where 23 C beats 25. Going under 25 C is like exclusively an indoor application in elite racing these days
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Old 11-11-23, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk
The A argument makes sense if we isolate total CdA to a wheel/rim in the wind tunnel. But does that check out if we consider the total bike + rider system, which is much wider than the tire? I'm not super sure about that. I also think that many IRL road surfaces are not good enough such that the loss in speed from a high pressure skinny tire on an imperfect surface is offset by marginal aero gains. On an indoor track? Skinny and high PSI all the way.

I think the strategy is to consider road surface first, and then choose a tires and PSI to match. Then after that, you select rim width such that the outer rim and tire casing have a flush surface. That is showing to make a big difference in testing these days. So if the road calls for 25C tires, you want 25 mm external width. If it calls for 28's, you want 28 mm external etc.

We are talking about 2 different things. I am talking about internal rim width not external. Argument team is making that 25 mm internal rim width will be quicker than 20 mm internal rim width regardless of the depth of the rim. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
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Old 11-11-23, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
We are talking about 2 different things. I am talking about internal rim width not external. Argument team is making that 25 mm internal rim width will be quicker than 20 mm internal rim width regardless of the depth of the rim. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
Oh no you were. What I was implying is that internal rim width doesn't matter. It's the tire/rim interface (external width) that matters, if you are considering aerodynamics. That probably matters more than a bit of rim depth.

EDIT: but the practical consequence is that the 20 mm internal choice is going to be so skinny that no one will want to run tires to match. you want to avoid the bulge of a wide tire on a narrow rim. so therefore go with the shallow, wider rim. of course a deeper, wider rim (not an option) would be best
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Old 11-11-23, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk
Oh no you were. What I was implying is that internal rim width doesn't matter. It's the tire/rim interface (external width) that matters, if you are considering aerodynamics.

I guess they are implying that with a 25 mm internal width the tire will sit lower in the rim. I suck at wrapping my head around this stuff.
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Old 11-11-23, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
I guess they are implying that with a 25 mm internal width the tire will sit lower in the rim. I suck at wrapping my head around this stuff.
For the same tire - it will. You'd have to run a pretty skinny tire to achieve that on a 20 mm internal rim. No one wants to do that, so go with the shallow/wide rim
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Old 11-11-23, 11:01 AM
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So now I am confused. Matching external rim width to tire size, is that only for road bikes? Gravel wheels that I am looking at are on 30 mm external .
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Old 11-11-23, 11:03 AM
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It's mostly a thing for road applications. When you go off road - sometimes you will simply need to run a wider/lower PSI tire to deal with rougher surfaces. Ever tried riding your road bike on a gravel or MTB route? It's going to be slower due to the skinny tires, don't matter how aero it is
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Old 11-11-23, 11:07 AM
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I put some 2" tyres on 45mm rims once..

RMOT

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