Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Sage advice, or lunacy? Hmmm...

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Sage advice, or lunacy? Hmmm...

Old 01-29-24, 09:06 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times in 1,510 Posts
Sage advice, or lunacy? Hmmm...

No good reason to buy a CF bike?

https://www.outsideonline.com/cultur...a-carbon-bike/
seypat is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 09:23 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
eduskator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,108

Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 583 Times in 438 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat
I stopped reading at ''CF bikes are ugly''

BS article from an old timer.
eduskator is offline  
Likes For eduskator:
Old 01-29-24, 09:27 AM
  #3  
I don't know.
 
RB1-luvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: South Meriden, CT
Posts: 2,009

Bikes: '90 B'stone RB-1, '92 B'stone RB-2, '89 SuperGo Access Comp, '03 Access 69er, '23 Trek 520, '14 Ritchey Road Logic, '09 Kestrel Evoke, '08 Windsor Tourist, '17 Surly Wednesday, '89 Centurion Accordo, '15 CruX, '17 Ridley X-Night, '89 Marinoni

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked 851 Times in 445 Posts
huh.
RB1-luvr is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 09:50 AM
  #4  
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times in 2,026 Posts
I'm sure this thread will be civil and full of productive, polite discussion.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 09:53 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
eduskator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,108

Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 583 Times in 438 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
I'm sure this thread will be civil and full of productive, polite discussion.
Don't get your hopes too high.
eduskator is offline  
Likes For eduskator:
Old 01-29-24, 10:09 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,249

Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10236 Post(s)
Liked 5,181 Times in 2,224 Posts
Sounds like he doesn’t make enough working for outside to afford a carbon fiber bike.


I recently flew with a captain that was an engineer designing high end sail boats out of carbon fiber in his previous life. The only thing he brought up, which I could see as a draw back and is not talked about. When you crash a carbon fiber bike unless you have noticeable structural damage, chances are you think it’s good. I know I do. The only way to know for sure if the carbon fiber is structurally sound is to apply it to high heat and look at it with a microscope. The cracks are small and usually can’t be seen with a naked eye, not too mention the paint does a good job at hiding them.
bampilot06 is online now  
Old 01-29-24, 10:12 AM
  #7  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,032

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 560 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22579 Post(s)
Liked 8,919 Times in 4,153 Posts
Many materials are viable for making a bike frame: Steel, Ti, Carbon Fiber, Aluminum, Bamboo, Wood....

It's really up to the consumer to decide what makes most sense for him/her. I think a well-made frame from ANY material that fits the rider is better than a not-so-well made and/or poorly fitting one made of wonderful material.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Likes For datlas:
Old 01-29-24, 10:15 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,227

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1097 Post(s)
Liked 559 Times in 446 Posts
This old timer has ridden nothing but carbon since the late nineties. Thirteen carbon frames from Colnago, LOOK, Cervelo, Cinelli and Yoeleo. I've crashed hard and been hit by cars twice, ruined both wheels once, never hurt the frame.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 01-29-24, 10:19 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
badger1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 5,122
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1579 Post(s)
Liked 1,187 Times in 604 Posts
Kind of sad, really. Eben Weiss (a.k.a. BSNYC) has been selling variations on this tired theme since at least 2010. In the early days these could at least be kind of funny. Now they are just a bore.
badger1 is offline  
Likes For badger1:
Old 01-29-24, 10:24 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times in 1,510 Posts
If I really think about it, The accessories like saddles, tires, riding apparel, handlebar tape etc are probably more important to the ride that what material the frame is made out of. If you're out there in a pair of bibs/shorts that aren't working for you, it's not going to matter if steel is real, ti is fly, or plastic is fantastic.
seypat is offline  
Likes For seypat:
Old 01-29-24, 10:53 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: Eastern Shore MD
Posts: 861

Bikes: Lemond Zurich/Trek ALR/Giant TCX/Sette CX1

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Liked 747 Times in 391 Posts
The way its written - meh, stupid article.

It's all about wants vs needs.

My Emonda aluminum ALR5 out of the box is $1000 cheaper than the CF SL5 version of the bike. $1000 buys you a few ounces of weight savings. Or I can put that $1000 into a decent set of wheels and be well over a pound lighter, and have better wheels...With the wheel upgrade - the ALR close in weight to the SL6 - which comes in at $5k.

3k gets you similar performance to 5k.

The CF version of the bike get's me absolutely nothing extra. The only reason to purchase the CF version is to say I have CF.
Jughed is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 11:27 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
blacknbluebikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,278

Bikes: two blacks, a blue and a white.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 444 Post(s)
Liked 844 Times in 408 Posts
Bike snob was fun when "it" was young. As a former Brooklyn resident, I found lots of funny things in his writing to connect with. Then he got big and Outside gave him a column, and, well, the material has gotten somewhat tired.

Like therapy, after a while, you just run out of things to talk about.
blacknbluebikes is offline  
Likes For blacknbluebikes:
Old 01-29-24, 11:31 AM
  #13  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,032

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 560 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22579 Post(s)
Liked 8,919 Times in 4,153 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat
If I really think about it, The accessories like saddles, tires, riding apparel, handlebar tape etc are probably more important to the ride that what material the frame is made out of. If you're out there in a pair of bibs/shorts that aren't working for you, it's not going to matter if steel is real, ti is fly, or plastic is fantastic.
Actually most important item is tires (quality, size, and proper inflation) after bike fit.

What KILLS me is seeing fellow "serious" cyclists spend big bucks on a CF frame and have them proclaim how smooth the ride is, while they are riding their 23 or 25mm tires at 110+ PSI. They would do much better on ANY frame material with 28's at 75PSI but it's consumer choice.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Likes For datlas:
Old 01-29-24, 11:43 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6944 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times in 4,677 Posts
Originally Posted by Jughed
It's all about wants vs needs.
fify.

When talking about particular goods or categories of goods, there is no way to distinguish between wants and needs.
Koyote is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 11:50 AM
  #15  
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,953

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6178 Post(s)
Liked 4,795 Times in 3,307 Posts
I love it <sarcasm> when OP's post a link to something and then don't offer any opinion of their own or give any indication of what the thread purpose is.

Seems to fit one of the definitions of Trolling to me.
Iride01 is offline  
Likes For Iride01:
Old 01-29-24, 11:54 AM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6944 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times in 4,677 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01
I love it <sarcasm> when OP's post a link to something and then don't offer any opinion of their own or give any indication of what the thread purpose is.

Seems to fit one of the definitions of Trolling to me.
Especially when the article is behind a paywall.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-29-24, 11:59 AM
  #17  
• —
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,219

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10152 Post(s)
Liked 5,843 Times in 3,147 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
Actually most important item is tires (quality, size, and proper inflation) after bike fit.

What KILLS me is seeing fellow "serious" cyclists spend big bucks on a CF frame and have them proclaim how smooth the ride is, while they are riding their 23 or 25mm tires at 110+ PSI. They would do much better on ANY frame material with 28's at 75PSI but it's consumer choice.
True, but my R3 is still more comfortable on 25mm tires at 80/75 than my Lynskey is with 28s at 65/60 and it's been a while, but I think they're both better than the steel frames of my youth.

Weiss is an entertaining writer, but a bit of a jerk and a one-trick pony.
MoAlpha is online now  
Likes For MoAlpha:
Old 01-29-24, 12:02 PM
  #18  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,913

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10397 Post(s)
Liked 11,860 Times in 6,072 Posts
Apparently, only World Tour pros race. This may come as some surprise to all of you folks who line up for local crits.

Also, only CF bikes are broken in crashes. This may come as a surprise to those who have broken metal frames in crashes.

Also, apparently the laws of physics only apply to World Tour pros, so that none of the rest of us derive any aerodynamic benefits from a more aerodynamic bike, nor any advantage in climbing from a lighter bike.

Basically, the whole thing is...

__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 12:14 PM
  #19  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3257 Post(s)
Liked 2,082 Times in 978 Posts
What a stupid column. I bet this guy is a blast at parties.

Except to my wife, I don’t think I have ever justified any bike related purchase beyond a new chain or cassette as a need.
phrantic09 is offline  
Likes For phrantic09:
Old 01-29-24, 12:22 PM
  #20  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,913

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10397 Post(s)
Liked 11,860 Times in 6,072 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
What a stupid column. I bet this guy is a blast at parties.

Except to my wife, I don’t think I have ever justified any bike related purchase beyond a new chain or cassette as a need.
Probably says, "Well, actually...." a lot. That is, of course, the sort of thing that everyone JUST LOVES at a party.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 12:27 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,481

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7649 Post(s)
Liked 3,465 Times in 1,831 Posts
Originally Posted by Jughed
The way its written - meh, stupid article.

It's all about wants vs needs.

My Emonda aluminum ALR5 out of the box is $1000 cheaper than the CF SL5 version of the bike. $1000 buys you a few ounces of weight savings. Or I can put that $1000 into a decent set of wheels and be well over a pound lighter, and have better wheels...With the wheel upgrade - the ALR close in weight to the SL6 - which comes in at $5k.

3k gets you similar performance to 5k.

The CF version of the bike get's me absolutely nothing extra. The only reason to purchase the CF version is to say I have CF.
Unless for whatever reason the CF version is simply more comfortable to you, and then when you add the better wheels it is Much lighter and Much more comfortable.

Yo0u are mixing standards here ... are we rating bikes by performance (and what does "performance:" mean in this context) oro by price, or by "perceived value" (which we all can immediately see is purely subjective) .... You say the Al version gets you "similar" performance .... but if i am buying for Max performance, not to save money ... I would get the CF. In fact, i would get the CF and put better wheels on it and for &6K get a better bike than the stock CF version or the upgraded Al version.

If I were Actually buying the bike, being me with my mindset, abilities, desires and finances, i would follow your route: Get the Al frame (all the performance I need, not being a great performer anyway) and get good wheels .... but that is "perceived vale," where ultimate performance is compromised by financial concerns, and we are both looking for "bang per buck" and willing to get a little less "bang" to save some bucks.

Saying there is no benefit to CF except bragging rights is just ignorant. Saying that To You the benefits of CF seems minuscule and not worth the cost is valid.

Bieksnob has terned into "Grant Peterson of new York," preaching his "ultimate bicycle philosophy" to whoever will listen. I didn't even bother reading the article .... we have all heard it all before. "I like what I like and this is why what I like is better, why I am smarter, and why people who agree with me are smart and people who think differently are dumb."

I listen to specialists about their specialties. If @RChung talks about aero and energy expenditure, if @PeteHski or some of the other actual engineers start breaking down the physics, I listen, because I know I don't know. When it comes to general knowledge, basic logic, and assessing one's personal needs and desires ... I have many decades of practice and I can do that pretty well. Therefore, when someone tells me what I think or need to think, what I want or should want, all that nonsense ....
Maelochs is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 12:47 PM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,850
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6944 Post(s)
Liked 10,944 Times in 4,677 Posts
He was a lot funnier when he was mocking brakeless fixie riders.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-29-24, 12:50 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times in 1,510 Posts
I love it <sarcasm> when OP's post a link to something and then don't offer any opinion of their own or give any indication of what the thread purpose is.

Seems to fit one of the definitions of Trolling to me.
Especially when the article is behind a paywall.
See post 10. I don't know about any paywall, the article popped up on my Google feed.
seypat is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 12:50 PM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: Eastern Shore MD
Posts: 861

Bikes: Lemond Zurich/Trek ALR/Giant TCX/Sette CX1

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Liked 747 Times in 391 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
Unless for whatever reason the CF version is simply more comfortable to you, and then when you add the better wheels it is Much lighter and Much more comfortable.

Yo0u are mixing standards here ... are we rating bikes by performance (and what does "performance:" mean in this context) oro by price, or by "perceived value" (which we all can immediately see is purely subjective) .... You say the Al version gets you "similar" performance .... but if i am buying for Max performance, not to save money ... I would get the CF. In fact, i would get the CF and put better wheels on it and for &6K get a better bike than the stock CF version or the upgraded Al version.

If I were Actually buying the bike, being me with my mindset, abilities, desires and finances, i would follow your route: Get the Al frame (all the performance I need, not being a great performer anyway) and get good wheels .... but that is "perceived vale," where ultimate performance is compromised by financial concerns, and we are both looking for "bang per buck" and willing to get a little less "bang" to save some bucks.

Saying there is no benefit to CF except bragging rights is just ignorant. Saying that To You the benefits of CF seems minuscule and not worth the cost is valid.

Bieksnob has terned into "Grant Peterson of new York," preaching his "ultimate bicycle philosophy" to whoever will listen. I didn't even bother reading the article .... we have all heard it all before. "I like what I like and this is why what I like is better, why I am smarter, and why people who agree with me are smart and people who think differently are dumb."

I listen to specialists about their specialties. If @RChung talks about aero and energy expenditure, if @PeteHski or some of the other actual engineers start breaking down the physics, I listen, because I know I don't know. When it comes to general knowledge, basic logic, and assessing one's personal needs and desires ... I have many decades of practice and I can do that pretty well. Therefore, when someone tells me what I think or need to think, what I want or should want, all that nonsense ....
(I'm not telling anyone what to think, say or brag about)

Performance based on value as it relates to me and what I do, which is very similar to what other recreational riders do...

The 3k ALR (price including wheel upgrade) is pretty much going to get me to the same place in the same amount of time as the 5k carbon model.

Aero on a long ride or century? I guess if I'm doing a 100 mile TT it would matter - but just like most everyone else, I'm not doing 100 mile TT's on a standard road bike. I'm drafting other riders with very limited time up front. And I'm riding the speed of the paceline - the CF bike isn't getting me into a faster paceline, so my time will be based off the paceline time.

Climbing? The bikes are within a few ounces of each other, in some cases the ALR + wheels weighs less than the CF of the same total cost.

Sure, if I double the cost I can get a more aero or lighter bike - but I'm talking dollar for dollar, and in some cases more dollars for the CF bike - the extra performance just isn't there.
Jughed is offline  
Old 01-29-24, 01:39 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,481

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7649 Post(s)
Liked 3,465 Times in 1,831 Posts
Originally Posted by Jughed
(I'm not telling anyone what to think, say or brag about)

Performance based on value as it relates to me and what I do, which is very similar to what other recreational riders do...

The 3k ALR (price including wheel upgrade) is pretty much going to get me to the same place in the same amount of time as the 5k carbon model.

Aero on a long ride or century? I guess if I'm doing a 100 mile TT it would matter - but just like most everyone else, I'm not doing 100 mile TT's on a standard road bike. I'm drafting other riders with very limited time up front. And I'm riding the speed of the paceline - the CF bike isn't getting me into a faster paceline, so my time will be based off the paceline time.

Climbing? The bikes are within a few ounces of each other, in some cases the ALR + wheels weighs less than the CF of the same total cost.

Sure, if I double the cost I can get a more aero or lighter bike - but I'm talking dollar for dollar, and in some cases more dollars for the CF bike - the extra performance just isn't there.
Reading is fundamental .... to some ...

Please note the following:

Originally Posted by Maelochs
If I were Actually buying the bike, being me with my mindset, abilities, desires and finances, i would follow your route: Get the Al frame (all the performance I need, not being a great performer anyway) and get good wheels .... but that is "perceived vale," where ultimate performance is compromised by financial concerns, and we are both looking for "bang per buck" and willing to get a little less "bang" to save some bucks.

Saying there is no benefit to CF except bragging rights is just ignorant. Saying that To You the benefits of CF seems minuscule and not worth the cost is valid.
Dude I Directly Agreed with you, and you are still not happy .... whatever.
Maelochs is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.