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Another Op-Ed related to steel vs CF

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Another Op-Ed related to steel vs CF

Old 02-13-24, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by choddo
You 10 second disc wheel changers help me out here. In the old days I would drop the chain to the smallest cog to make removing and reinserting a QR wheel easier.

If I do that on my disc brake bikes, it seems to make the wheel move left as I pull back the RD to let the wheel in, the top jockey wheel swings inboard -making the rotor scrape on the NDS chainstay. Bad. This is particularly on a GRX shadow mech. Not noticed it so much on 105.

Should I be intentionally leaving the chain further up the cassette? Makes it harder to clear the derailleur though.
I always make sure to catch the chain with the smallest cog while pushing the derailleur open and pulling the wheel into place, so I don't have this problem.
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Old 02-13-24, 06:36 PM
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I am doing that, thatís what makes the wheel go left as the mech is pulled back a bit further as it continues upwards. Maybe Iíll try to get a video.
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Old 02-13-24, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Probably because you have huge tires to take up the road chatter instead.
Thanks for brining this up. I've never owned or ridden a disc braked bike. I've been wondering about the new (to me) emphasis on running wider tires at low pressure, when my '99 carbon Trek can run 23mm just fine and never tires me out - at least not from vibration. So far I still out-coast everyone, so these new tires can't be that much faster.

I hadn't occurred to silly old me that discs would require a stiffer fork and frame members. Of course they do. It happens that the Trek engineers of the time had determined that no one would need a wider tire than 25mm anyway. I tried 25s, didn't see the point when my 23s worked fine and were the same width as my rims. I have surrendered to current conventions though and no longer run them at 140 lbs. Those tires don't exist anymore anyway. Carbon bikes seem to last forever, at least as long as they're well built and component parts are available That steel and aluminum stuff wears out or corrodes, darn it.

As far as style is concerned, my bike looks like a bike. Fine.
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Old 02-14-24, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Thanks for brining this up. I've never owned or ridden a disc braked bike. I've been wondering about the new (to me) emphasis on running wider tires at low pressure, when my '99 carbon Trek can run 23mm just fine and never tires me out - at least not from vibration. So far I still out-coast everyone, so these new tires can't be that much faster.

I hadn't occurred to silly old me that discs would require a stiffer fork and frame members. Of course they do. It happens that the Trek engineers of the time had determined that no one would need a wider tire than 25mm anyway. I tried 25s, didn't see the point when my 23s worked fine and were the same width as my rims. I have surrendered to current conventions though and no longer run them at 140 lbs. Those tires don't exist anymore anyway. Carbon bikes seem to last forever, at least as long as they're well built and component parts are available That steel and aluminum stuff wears out or corrodes, darn it.

As far as style is concerned, my bike looks like a bike. Fine.
As it happens I got to ride a friendís 2002 (approx year) Trek carbon road bike while I was on holiday in Nice back in 2019. The first thing that really struck me was how harsh the ride was compared to my own bike, running tubeless 28c tyres at that time. Braking grip was also notably lacking. None of these things used to concern me BITD when I had my own similar bikes with skinny tyres and rim brakes, but I sure as hell have no desire to go back! Tyres have evolved for good reason. Iím now running tubeless 30c tyres on matching wider rims and they are great. I think I will try the 32c version of this tyre next.
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Old 02-14-24, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Folks who impede 'progress' and increased bike sales and profits are indeed awful human beings.
Mother Theresa never even Bought a bike, let alone a copy of the latest TdF winner's bike.
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Old 02-14-24, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Folks who impede 'progress' and increased bike sales and profits are indeed awful human beings. The bike industry, as bad as shape as it is in right now needs spokespeople and influencers to dispel any contradictory opinions that newer isn't always better. Paid positions perhaps to monitor and steer the discussion on forums and social media towards the new and shinier! Change over the bike fleet ASAP!
Ever hear of capitalism? It's where companies make products and sell them to consumers. Although I suppose you think their ad should read "Here is our new 2024 model. It is no better than our ten year old model so you probably shouldn't buy it".

And you think people on the forum are paid to endorse new bike stuff? Paranoid much?

Maybe new stuff doesn't appeal to you and that's your choice. You can be an educated consumer, decide what you want, do your homework, and make an informed purchase, or no purchase.

But when you imply that others who don't follow your lead are ignorant, or "don't know any better" or are just following what they are told by advertising copy, you are dismissing the fact that those people might just have a different opinion than you do.
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Old 02-14-24, 10:46 AM
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^he is asking them to be His sheep
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Old 02-14-24, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
^he is asking them to be His sheep
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Old 02-14-24, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by big john
Maybe new stuff doesn't appeal to you and that's your choice. You can be an educated consumer, decide what you want, do your homework, and make an informed purchase, or no purchase.
I totally agree that consumers should make educated/informed choices about bike purchases. Sure, they should listen to the experts in shops and the 'journalists' in the cycling press. And from bloggers and influencers who want/need to justify their latest purchase, or maintain the flow of free trinkets from the industry. These are all completely trustworthy and independent. Right? They have zero motivations other than what is best for the consumer individually or as a whole?

So where exactly is someone supposed to get any perspective other than that of a salesman or industry cheerleader? From the cycling press who get paid by the advertisers?
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Old 02-14-24, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I totally agree that consumers should make educated/informed choices about bike purchases. Sure, they should listen to the experts in shops and the 'journalists' in the cycling press. And from bloggers and influencers who want/need to justify their latest purchase, or maintain the flow of free trinkets from the industry. These are all completely trustworthy and independent. Right? They have zero motivations other than what is best for the consumer individually or as a whole?

So where exactly is someone supposed to get any perspective other than that of a salesman or industry cheerleader? From the cycling press who get paid by the advertisers?
The amount of information that is out there about every little thing is FAR greater than at any time in history. Want to know about disc brakes on a road bike? You can find all sorts of opinions out there! Everything from "company shills" to every day folks oversharing their own experiences - like this place. BITD, if you wanted to know about bike stuff, there were magazines (full of paid advertising by Big Bike), bike shops (who are trying to make a buck), and your cycling friends (assuming you have any).

I always get a chuckle from those who assume consumers have no agency.
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Old 02-14-24, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by badger1
One of my favorite choruses from "Messiah"! I always hear it as "Oh, we like sheep!"
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Old 02-14-24, 01:12 PM
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My observation has been that those that think the old products are better than the new, and that people should only buy the old products, are likely people that simply cannot afford the new products and have to convince themselves that what they have is actually better.
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Old 02-14-24, 01:25 PM
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Damnit. I knew better than to open this thread.
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Old 02-14-24, 01:28 PM
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I have an unlimited bike budget. Through work and riding cronies, I get to ride a lot of different bikes. I also own a current-gen big-name road bike with Ultegra hydraulic disc. This bike is great for descending in the rain.

But for 95% of the rest of my riding, my four carbon circa-2015 road bikes are superior, mainly because they are lighter, particularly in the wheels. Carbon tubulars; 1,200 gram wheelsets with no need for rotors. The 2015 bikes are also a hell of a lot easier to work on.
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Old 02-14-24, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I totally agree that consumers should make educated/informed choices about bike purchases. Sure, they should listen to the experts in shops and the 'journalists' in the cycling press. And from bloggers and influencers who want/need to justify their latest purchase, or maintain the flow of free trinkets from the industry. These are all completely trustworthy and independent. Right? They have zero motivations other than what is best for the consumer individually or as a whole?

So where exactly is someone supposed to get any perspective other than that of a salesman or industry cheerleader? From the cycling press who get paid by the advertisers?
Have you heard of this thing called youtube?
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Old 02-14-24, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
One of my favorite choruses from "Messiah"! I always hear it as "Oh, we like sheep!"
Indeed; there are quite a few variations along those lines, most of which are nsfw!
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Old 02-14-24, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I have an unlimited bike budget. Through work and riding cronies, I get to ride a lot of different bikes. I also own a current-gen big-name road bike with Ultegra hydraulic disc. This bike is great for descending in the rain.

But for 95% of the rest of my riding, my four carbon circa-2015 road bikes are superior, mainly because they are lighter, particularly in the wheels. Carbon tubulars; 1,200 gram wheelsets with no need for rotors. The 2015 bikes are also a hell of a lot easier to work on.
I donít want discs on all my bikes but I have 4 (including my wifeís and daughterís) that have them and I donít think they are difficult to work on. Largely hassle free for 5/6 years now. Had to do a few pad swaps and a couple of bleeds in that time. My main love of my life road bike is a Madone with rim brakes. That is a PITA to work on with the fully internally routed cables but I forgive it because itís so beautiful.
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Old 02-14-24, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ls01
Damnit. I knew better than to open this thread.
Apparently not.
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Old 02-14-24, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I totally agree that consumers should make educated/informed choices about bike purchases. Sure, they should listen to the experts in shops and the 'journalists' in the cycling press. And from bloggers and influencers who want/need to justify their latest purchase, or maintain the flow of free trinkets from the industry. These are all completely trustworthy and independent. Right? They have zero motivations other than what is best for the consumer individually or as a whole?

So where exactly is someone supposed to get any perspective other than that of a salesman or industry cheerleader? From the cycling press who get paid by the advertisers?
You sound like the people who say all news is always all lies. It's up to us to sort through the mess as best as we can, fact check if indicated, and seek other sources.
When buying a bike one can do the same thing. Seek different sources for info, find out what's out there and what will work for you. Plus, there can be bike lust involved.
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Old 02-14-24, 03:41 PM
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Frame material doesn't matter. Immersive waxed chains are a universal upgrade that bike of all eras and price points can benefit from!
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Old 02-14-24, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathanf2
Frame material doesn't matter. Immersive waxed chains are a universal upgrade that bike of all eras and price points can benefit from!
It enhances the experience of all 5 senses: Looks better, smells better, sounds better, feels better, and if you dare, tastes better. Even enhances the 6th sense because it just is better.
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Old 02-14-24, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I totally agree that consumers should make educated/informed choices about bike purchases. Sure, they should listen to the experts in shops and the 'journalists' in the cycling press. And from bloggers and influencers who want/need to justify their latest purchase, or maintain the flow of free trinkets from the industry. These are all completely trustworthy and independent. Right? They have zero motivations other than what is best for the consumer individually or as a whole?

So where exactly is someone supposed to get any perspective other than that of a salesman or industry cheerleader? From the cycling press who get paid by the advertisers?
Personally, I find a lot of value in the opinions of actual users, particularly those who have been involved with the activity for a long time, and have deep knowledge about both gear and usage in the real world. One of the best places to find such folks is on discussion forums. this has proven to be true for a variety of activities I've been deeply involved with.
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Old 02-14-24, 08:27 PM
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I feel like Eben should have kept going. When you tell people to buy a steel frame, that's not the whole message -- what you're really saying is don't buy a new bike at all.

Because the least sensical purchase in cycling, if you're at all trying to make use of your money, is a new steel frame. Last I checked, you can't even get one from the big two bike companies in the U.S.

So, if you go to, say, Ritchey for a nice steel frame, it's like $1,700 for the frame alone. And I think that's a frame made in Asia, no lugs -- not picking on Ritchey; I mention them because I think their frames are nice examples of an attractive steel bikes.

Meanwhile, the used market is crowded with steel frames made of the best tubing, lugs, hand brazing, etc., for peanuts -- sometimes less than $100.

You can go to eBay and find handmade Italian steel frames with top Columbus tubing all day long for less than $400. If you got one professionally refinished and repainted, it'd still cost less than a new steel frame and be a show stopper.

Or just buy a full 531 Trek frame for a couple hundred. Silver brazed lugs, handmade in Wisconsin.

When he's talking about buying steel, Eben is really arguing for rescuing your bike, not getting it from the breeder.
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Old 02-14-24, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Personally, I find a lot of value in the opinions of actual users, particularly those who have been involved with the activity for a long time, and have deep knowledge about both gear and usage in the real world. One of the best places to find such folks is on discussion forums. this has proven to be true for a variety of activities I've been deeply involved with.
Unfortunately, these forums are incredibly disconnected with the cycling community in general. Between the aged demographic and outsized voice of the C&V community no conversation van be had without a overpowering voice of old men telling everyone how it was done back in the day and how those ways were best. Take a look at the active threads it is extremely rare to see a discussion involving current trends and insights. I tour, participate in group rides, enroll in events such as Fondos and live in a community with a large population of sporting cyclists. None of the insanity you see posted in these forums exist in the real world. Carbon predominates, disc brakes are preferred, tubeless is adopted and GPS head units are ubiquitous all of which if you looked at these forums are disasters in the making. I enjoy the gong show and the ends people go to refuse to accept reality.
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Old 02-14-24, 09:20 PM
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I like trucks. Always have - since I was a kid. My parents insist my first word "guck" was truck.

Anyway, I used to think that newer model aero pickup trucks looked stupid compared to the boxy old ones. We all did. Anyhow, times change. Now I like the new trucks and the old trucks, but the old ones do look decidedly retro.
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