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Another Op-Ed related to steel vs CF

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Another Op-Ed related to steel vs CF

Old 02-10-24, 05:24 AM
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Another Op-Ed related to steel vs CF

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https://www.bicycleretailer.com/opinion-analysis/2024/02/08/opinion-retailer-responds-eben-weiss-carbon-fiber-column
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Old 02-10-24, 06:55 AM
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steel is real.
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Old 02-10-24, 07:33 AM
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This is the key line from the essay:

There is no end to the amusement that comes with watching folks spend time and energy arguing for personal beliefs that are completely irrelevant to everyone else.”
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Old 02-10-24, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
This is the key line from the essay:

There is no end to the amusement that comes with watching folks spend time and energy arguing for personal beliefs that are completely irrelevant to everyone else.”
Especially because it’s an irrefutable fact that crabon is not the best frame maternal, regardless of one’s personal beliefs.
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Old 02-10-24, 09:40 AM
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These bike forums are like it's the local McDonald's breakfast club. Same heated debates, different day – it's the McOldTimers hashing out tales of epic rides ridden long ago and settling into their comfortable, well-worn arguments, served with a side of Luddite. While the local group rides assemble and roll out, events kick off and hundreds of thousands of sporting cyclists pursue the sport. All the while with carbon frames, disc brakes, indexed shifting, tubeless tires, low spoke count wheels and ever increasing electronic systems, the McOldtimers are looking out the window (in this example computer screen) and commenting they are all doing it wrong.
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Old 02-10-24, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
This is the key line from the essay:

There is no end to the amusement that comes with watching folks spend time and energy arguing for personal beliefs that are completely irrelevant to everyone else.”
So at least we have a purpose.
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Old 02-10-24, 10:05 AM
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The purpose of the BikeSnob column and blog is amusement.

It is somewhat similar to Bicycleforums.net in that way.

The only useful piece of information I have obtained from reading Eban's stuff (the blog is a bit better than the laundered Outside Mag pap) is the Ben's Cycles 10% off coupon.

If I want hard-core retro-advice and opinions, I can subscribe to Bicycle Quarterly (which I do).
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Old 02-10-24, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
These bike forums are like it's the local McDonald's breakfast club. Same heated debates, different day – it's the McOldTimers hashing out tales of epic rides ridden long ago and settling into their comfortable, well-worn arguments, served with a side of Luddite. While the local group rides assemble and roll out, events kick off and hundreds of thousands of sporting cyclists pursue the sport. All the while with carbon frames, disc brakes, indexed shifting, tubeless tires, low spoke count wheels and ever increasing electronic systems, the McOldtimers are looking out the window (in this example computer screen) and commenting they are all doing it wrong.
I think they do have a point with the low spoke count wheels.
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Old 02-10-24, 10:36 AM
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I don't find the article particularly coherent.

But I do agree that much of what was nuanced about frame and fork design have gone out the window because of the requirements of disc braking.
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Old 02-10-24, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I don't find the article particularly coherent.
It wasn't.

At least Eben can write.

Last edited by Polaris OBark; 02-10-24 at 12:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-10-24, 11:16 AM
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That's a serious bait-and-switch article. He opens with "As desperately as I want to agree with Eben Weiss’s recent op-ed ...", but then describes how he actually agrees with the original op-ed with the exception of one minor point.
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Old 02-10-24, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
But I do agree that much of what was nuanced about frame and fork design have gone out the window because of the requirements of disc braking.
Because adding mounting flanges for brake calipers on forks and stays makes frame/fork design no longer "nuanced"?
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Old 02-10-24, 02:46 PM
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I won't read this one, and didn't read much of the other ... this is rich though ... one guy writes a hack piece to stir up debate to get "engagement" on his website to justify his paycheck ... and this vampire latches on to the other guy's article and tries to parasitically suck the same posters into extending their "engagement."

I have many much better ways to waste what little life I have left.
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Old 02-10-24, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Because adding mounting flanges for brake calipers on forks and stays makes frame/fork design no longer "nuanced"?
If you add mounting flanges to your fork without otherwise stiffening it, you won't have a fork for very long. All disc road forks are much more rigid than the forks they replaced, and even understanding that need, many road and CX disc forks had failures.

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...sc-road-forks/
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2017/ad...s-recall-alert
https://www.cannondale.com/-/media/f...ernational.pdf
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2013/Sa...-Bicycle-Forks <Steel is real broken!

And those are just the ones that are obviously from the left leg disc - I suspect that some of the crown and steerer tube failures of other disc bikes may have been from disc braking load.



Same with disc frames and disc wheels - they had to be redesigned to not be impacted by all that torque. You don't move all that leverage to hub without design consequences.
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Old 02-10-24, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I won't read this one, and didn't read much of the other ... this is rich though ... one guy writes a hack piece to stir up debate to get "engagement" on his website to justify his paycheck ... and this vampire latches on to the other guy's article and tries to parasitically suck the same posters into extending their "engagement."

I have many much better ways to waste what little life I have left.
There's a certain irony in taking time to post this.
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Old 02-10-24, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
If you add mounting flanges to your fork without otherwise stiffening it, you won't have a fork for very long. All disc road forks are much more rigid than the forks they replaced, and even understanding that need, many road and CX disc forks had failures.
Citing product recalls from 7-10 years ago for forks that used post mounts doesn’t make a very compelling argument.

Last edited by tomato coupe; 02-10-24 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 02-10-24, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
There's a certain irony in taking time to post this.
I was thinking the same thing, mission accomplished by both authors...
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Old 02-10-24, 05:43 PM
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I think this quote has some merit

"Mr. Weiss’s point that “a carbon bike is thrillingly cutting edge until it’s about two or three seasons old, at which point it becomes yesterday’s hunk of plastic and nobody wants it, including you,” is truer now than for any material in the past."

One of the things that attracts buyers to carbon frames is the more sculpted forms of the frame. These are usually claimed to have more aero properties and, if nothing else, do have unique shapes as compared to tube frames made from steel. Point being, the very thing that attracts many buyers to carbon frames, is what makes the latest frames designs more appealing than older designs. So, in fact we may lose our love for the older carbon frame, because it is, in effect, out of fashion.

I have two bikes with carbon frames, and my main one being a Trek Domane with a carbon frame. I absolutely love the bike. I really like the look of the frame, though there's nothing particularity radical in the shapes. But I accept the fact that in say 5 years, I may look at that frame as being out of date compared to whatever style frames are being made at that time.

It's of course silly to hold this against carbon as a material. It's this very flexibility of carbon that allows for the more complex shapes. This complexity allows for a wider range of designs. And then ultimately the wider range of designs opens the door to designs coming in and out of fashion.
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Old 02-10-24, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mtracer
I think this quote has some merit

"Mr. Weiss’s point that “a carbon bike is thrillingly cutting edge until it’s about two or three seasons old, at which point it becomes yesterday’s hunk of plastic and nobody wants it, including you,” is truer now than for any material in the past."
It has no more merit than

"A steel/aluminum/titanium bike is thrillingly cutting edge until it's about two or three seasons old, at which point it becomes yesterday’s hunk of metal and nobody wants it, including you."
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Old 02-10-24, 06:31 PM
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Old 02-10-24, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Citing product recalls from 7-10 years ago for forks that used post mounts doesn’t make a very compelling argument.
Only if you believe that rim brake forks tended to break their left legs prior to the introduction of disc brakes.

If not, then it is a pretty clear example of how disc brakes stress forks differently than rim brake forks did.
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Old 02-10-24, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Only if you believe that rim brake forks tended to break their left legs prior to the introduction of disc brakes.

If not, then it is a pretty clear example of how disc brakes stress forks differently than rim brake forks did.
No one claims that disc brake forks aren't stressed differently than rim brake forks. But, your attempt to impugn modern disc brakes by citing a few examples of early fork failures is misguided. Those forks likely failed because the manufacturers simply added post mounts to existing forks, instead of properly engineering them.
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Old 02-10-24, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
steel is real.
Yes, but Carbon Gives Me A Hardon
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Old 02-10-24, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
No one claims that disc brake forks aren't stressed differently than rim brake forks. But, your attempt to impugn modern disc brakes by citing a few examples of early fork failures is misguided. Those forks likely failed because the manufacturers simply added post mounts to existing forks, instead of properly engineering them.
And what do you think "properly engineering" a flexible arm to handle increased stress might be?


I've talked to these companies - it isn't a secret that disc forks are stiffer to handle the stresses. Forks aren't complicated.

And stating a fact isn't "impugning" anything. If I say a 23mm tires has lower rolling resistance, it isn't impugning the tire to point out it is slower on rough roads. That's just physics.
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Old 02-10-24, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
And what do you think "properly engineering" a flexible arm to handle increased stress might be?


I've talked to these companies - it isn't a secret that disc forks are stiffer to handle the stresses. Forks aren't complicated.

And stating a fact isn't "impugning" anything. If I say a 23mm tires has lower rolling resistance, it isn't impugning the tire to point out it is slower on rough roads. That's just physics.
Complaining about stiff forks is one of the talking points of people that dislike disc brakes. If that was not what you were implying, I apologize.
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