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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 03-14-24, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad
Doesn't matter to me what people use, I just think it's asinine that some wheel makers are adament everyone should be on tubeless hookless rims. The cycling industry seems really fixated on removing options and choices. I don't know why, I feel cycling is a hobby and hobbies are more fun with choices and variations. Mechanical vs Electric, Rim vs Disc, Tubeless/Tube/Tub, clincher/hookless, I don't see why industry can provide the choices and let the rider choose. I get if if someone is capable they are able to find what they want, but just browsing a local shop, all the road bikes are the same regardless of brand, they all look the same too.
Take a step back and you will see that there are far more bike and gear choices today than ever before. When I started cycling in the 80s there was nothing remotely like the choice and variation we see today. Not even close.

Of course road bikes all look the same. They always did, it’s just that the look has changed over time.
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Old 03-14-24, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad
Doesn't matter to me what people use, I just think it's asinine that some wheel makers are adament everyone should be on tubeless hookless rims. The cycling industry seems really fixated on removing options and choices. I don't know why, I feel cycling is a hobby and hobbies are more fun with choices and variations. Mechanical vs Electric, Rim vs Disc, Tubeless/Tube/Tub, clincher/hookless, I don't see why industry can provide the choices and let the rider choose. I get if if someone is capable they are able to find what they want, but just browsing a local shop, all the road bikes are the same regardless of brand, they all look the same too.
I have yet to see anything that suggests that some wheel makers are adamant that everyone should be on tubeless hookless rims. Manufacturers make what they think will sell and sell at a good profit margin. They then advertise those products. Ultimately, it's up to the consumer to decide whether to buy or not buy. If they don't buy a product, it will not appear in the market for very long.

Your argument comes up time and time again in this forum, whether the discussion is about brakes, shifting, wheels, tires, or other things. And, it's always from the people who seemingly want to continue to live in the past. Bike and parts manufacturers are not in business to satisfy our every whim, they are in business to make money. They will make and sell what the consumer demands, and will not make or sell what is not profitable in the market place. It's that simple. Of course, we are all free to buy what we want and free to not buy what we don't want.

By the same token, if you want to put your capital at risk, you are free to make and sell all those little things for which there is no broad market so that you can continue to have the "variety" you want in your hobby.
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Old 03-14-24, 09:35 AM
  #353  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen
Now you tell me! Just converted my new-to-me Shiv to tubeless and had a puncture today the sealant wouldn't plug. Nor would the plug kit plug. Had to use my "phone a friend" option. Walked two miles before he picked me up, the whole time thinking "I probably should carry a spare tube just for **** like this."
If sealant wont plug and a plug kit wont plug, get different sealant and a different plug kit. Pretty simple post-issue assessment right there.
And of course you should carry a spare tube.

Originally Posted by VegasJen
Not Dynaplug. The problem was there was a second puncture that was right at the edge of the rim. I couldn't really tell until I got the tire home and pulled off the wheel. I did not try rotating it down although the holes were almost exactly 180* from the valve so just the act of attempting to fill the tire with my CO2 cartridge had the tire positioned so the holes were at the bottom.
Still new to tubeless so not really well versed on all the tips and tricks.
Multiple punctures in a single ride sounds awful. I would likely give up cycling and try shuffleboard.
You should ask others in your area that ride if they too flat on every ride(as you said you do) or get multiple flats on a single ride. If they dont, maybe its you and not the roads or equipment. And to be clear, I doubt everyone in Southern Nevada was getting a flat on every single ride before tubeless was common.

Originally Posted by VegasJen
It absolutely looks like a snake bite, but I don't believe it was the original source for my loss of pressure. I ensured pressure was correct before I left in the morning and had just checked pressure by hand less than 30 minutes before this happened.
I have a theory that I had a puncture I did not feel that caused me to lose some air and shortly after that I hit something that caused this. This was on a long descent where I was maintaining 20+mph just by coasting so I was very much paying attention to how the bike felt.
Poorly maintained roads are definitely a drawback here.
You got a snake bite flat on a tubeless tire? Like the rubber tire has 2 holes that look like the snake bite punctures commonly found on butyl tubes?
Ive read about tubeless snakebites on MTB tires, but thats largely due to the very low pressures run and rock strikes that then compress the tire's sidewall. What in the world are you hitting on paved roads that cause a snakebite tear in a tubeless tire? I would think you would need to slam into a significant pothole with really low pressure to create such an incident with tubeless road tires and pressures.
Yeah, your theory would explain the crazy circumstances needed.

Originally Posted by VegasJen
I appreciate your sentiment but I assure you this will not become a normal occurrence for me. I knew this was going to be a longer than normal training ride. And I knew there was the potential for being stranded (or injured) as much as 20 miles away from my ride.
For my normal training rides of <30 miles in which I'm never more than 15 miles from home and rarely more than 5 miles from town, I have no intention of carrying my phone.
I know most of you can't fathom that but I reject my eLeash as much and as often as I can.
You experienced a need for a phone, but even after that, you refuse to bring it along for future rides. That is some perfectly on brand reasoning coming from you. Like spot on logical disconnect.
Just because you are rarely more than 15 miles from home or 5 miles from town doesnt mean you wont experience a need moving forward.
- you come upon someone in distress on the side of the road(driver, pedestrian, cyclist, runner) and you can call 911 which helps save their life.
- you crash(its well documented you do it frequently) and cant continue riding, so instead of calling for help from a friend or calling 911 because you are severely injured, you have to lie there and wait for someone driving by to stop and call for you.



You crash constantly, you live in a remote area, yet you refuse to simply carry something that can easily save yourself or others in an emergency. Based on your cycling and non-cycling related comments thru the last couple years, I am not surprised.
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Old 03-14-24, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
You experienced a need for a phone, but even after that, you refuse to bring it along for future rides. That is some perfectly on brand reasoning coming from you. Like spot on logical disconnect.
Just because you are rarely more than 15 miles from home or 5 miles from town doesnt mean you wont experience a need moving forward.
Exactly. Her logic ('I'm not going more than xx miles from home so don't need a phone') makes zero sense. Whether you're five miles or fifty miles from home, it's a long walk with a disabled bike.
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Old 03-14-24, 10:09 AM
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Helpful BF denizens characterize simple personal decisions as wrong, again.

And, again and again, and again. It seems to be a way of life for some BF'ers.

Those folks should get one! A life, I mean...

Get a life!!
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Old 03-14-24, 10:15 AM
  #356  
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Trek's recent reset had a prominent goal of reducing SKUs.
"Any color you want, as long as it's black."
^ hasnt looked at the Trek website in years.
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Old 03-14-24, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Helpful BF denizens characterize simple personal decisions as wrong, again.

And, again and again, and again. It seems to be a way of life for some BF'ers.

Those folks should get one! A life, I mean...

Get a life!!
If you're not interested in people's opinions, then you should probably stay away from internet discussion forums.
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Old 03-14-24, 10:24 AM
  #358  
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Helpful BF denizens characterize simple personal decisions as wrong, again.
And, again and again, and again. It seems to be a way of life for some BF'ers.
Those folks should get one! A life, I mean...
Get a life!!
Sometimes it helps to point out specific use case scenarios because a person may have not thought of those scenarios and pushing back may change a person's mind.
If someone is only thinking 'well I am only a few miles from home and can walk, so a phone is worthless', that may be true for that instance, but there are other instances where a phone is valuable and that person may not be considering those instances.

This is true for cycling and life outside of cycling- its common for us to not always see situations where something reasonable and common could help, until we are in the situation and dont have that thing.

VegasJen is obviously free to do what she whats and if she thinks packing a spare tube or bringing a phone is dumb moving forward, then so be it. But it isnt unreasonable for me or others to point out realistic use cases where those things would be invaluable. This obviously doesnt mean one needs to pack everything and the kitchen sink either. There is always a general point at which the majority stop planning/prepping for possible scenarios. This deviation point is then discovered thru discussion. I will happily say that I carry different things on my bikes now compared to 10 years ago, and it is in part because of discussions over what everyone brings on a ride, along with the reality that how/where I ride now is different from years ago.
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Old 03-14-24, 10:38 AM
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When I was a yute and cell phones were the stuff of science fiction, it would not be out of the question to just throw the broken down bike in the back of a stranger's pickup and get a ride home. No way would I do that today or recommend doing that to the yutes of today. A cell phone on a ride can save your butt.

I always carry one as a safety measure, but it is turned off or on silent so it doesn't interrupt the ride zen.
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Old 03-14-24, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
If you're not interested in people's opinions, then you should probably stay away from internet discussion forums.
... and you shouldn't actively seek out advice on a forum, only to reject almost every bit that is offered, as she has done repeatedly.
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Old 03-14-24, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen
I appreciate your sentiment but I assure you this will not become a normal occurrence for me. I knew this was going to be a longer than normal training ride. And I knew there was the potential for being stranded (or injured) as much as 20 miles away from my ride.

For my normal training rides of <30 miles in which I'm never more than 15 miles from home and rarely more than 5 miles from town, I have no intention of carrying my phone. I know most of you can't fathom that but I reject my eLeash as much and as often as I can.
I found the "e-leash" description of the phone interesting. I'm going to take a wild guess that this is about feeling like you can't escape people bothering you. I get that. If you feel like the phone provides a means for people to reach out and pester you, yeah, you'll feel like it's a leash. But there's another way to look at it. You wouldn't be reachable by phone if you weren't carrying it, right? So, silence it, maybe put it on Do Not Disturb while riding, and just put it in your pocket and ignore it. I ignore mine, and I don't even silence it. In addition to this, by carrying a phone, you can go farther, because you're not tied to a limited range where it's easy enough to get back if you need to. Just a thought. Instead of a leash, think of it as a tool that YOU control.

The other thing is - what the hell is causing all these punctures? Tire wires? Glass? Thorns? I assume you're pumping up your tires enough to mostly avoid pinch flats. Do you live in Goats Head Central?
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Old 03-14-24, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
If you're not interested in people's opinions, then you should probably stay away from internet discussion forums.
I suggested getting a life.

Weren't you listening?
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Old 03-14-24, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
I suggested getting a life.

Weren't you listening?
Maybe he’s not interested in other people’s opinions which, by your reasoning, would mean you should get a life.
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Old 03-14-24, 11:15 AM
  #364  
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Originally Posted by Mojo31
Bike and parts manufacturers are not in business to satisfy our every whim, they are in business to make money. They will make and sell what the consumer demands whatever the company's marketing can convince people to buy, and will not make or sell what is not profitable what doesn't maximize their profits in the market place. It's that simple. Of course, we are all free to buy what we want what the companies offer us and free to not buy what we don't want pound salt if the thing you rely upon "no longer fits with the company strategy".
fify

Capitalism, baby! It is that simple.
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Old 03-14-24, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
fify

Capitalism, baby! It is that simple.
tbf, I think reality lies somewhere between "Consumers are slaves to Corporations!" and "Corporations are slaves to Consumers!" Consumers can only buy what's offered, but OTOH, there are plenty of examples of companies doing very poorly making bets on what consumers will buy. Shimano's history in the 1980s has a bunch of examples - Dyna Drive pedals, the Dura Ace and 600 AX groupsets, the Sante groupset.
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Old 03-14-24, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
I suggested getting a life.

Weren't you listening?
Don’t attempt to backtrack and parse language. Your meaning was quite clear.
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Old 03-14-24, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
tbf, I think reality lies somewhere between "Consumers are slaves to Corporations!" and "Corporations are slaves to Consumers!" Consumers can only buy what's offered, but OTOH, there are plenty of examples of companies doing very poorly making bets on what consumers will buy. Shimano's history in the 1980s has a bunch of examples - Dyna Drive pedals, the Dura Ace and 600 AX groupsets, the Sante groupset.
Fair point. But Shimano in the 1980s wasn't nearly the juggernaut it is today.
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Old 03-14-24, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by choddo
You are clearly a very capable and self-reliant individual so I think it’s entirely down to your own preferences and I kind of get the appeal of the sense of freedom. Personally I find them indispensable and it’s the one thing I never forget when I leave the house.

The work phone never comes anywhere with me at the weekend though.
I did spend a number of years where I was never more than arm's length from a phone. On call 24/7. Distinctly remember spending about 6 hours one Thanksgiving night putting out a customer's fire (that wasn't even because of our service) because that was the promise my company made when we signed a contract. Even now, I find it annoying to get messages from my current employer about when they need someone to come in and pick up a shift. These are mass text blasts and I often get them while I'm at work.
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Just switch it off or into privacy mode while you ride. That one time you might just need it could be life saving or at the very least save you some unnecessary hassle.
I guess that's an idea.
Originally Posted by Mojo31
When I was a yute and cell phones were the stuff of science fiction, it would not be out of the question to just throw the broken down bike in the back of a stranger's pickup and get a ride home. No way would I do that today or recommend doing that to the yutes of today. A cell phone on a ride can save your butt.

I always carry one as a safety measure, but it is turned off or on silent so it doesn't interrupt the ride zen.
I kept waiting for Highway Patrol to pass me by. The highway is regularly patrolled. In fact, I had been on the highway for more than 30 miles before the puncture and been passed by HP no less than three times before the flat. Just crappy luck they were tied up, or just lucky that my phone-a-friend got to me first.

I have had a couple people offer, and I have accepted, help in the past. I'm mature enough that I'm less concerned about bad actors and this is still a fairly small town. We may not know everybody but I do see familiar faces around town quite often.
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Old 03-14-24, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Fair point. But Shimano in the 1980s wasn't nearly the juggernaut it is today.
But they got that way by making things cyclists wanted.

I see a lot of folks on here take one side or the other of this argument, but I think it's more complex. Yes, consumers are influenced by advertising. But they have agency, and they are capable of forming opinions. On the other side, sure, companies engage in planned obsolescence and pushing The Next Big Thing. But they exist to make money, and if they find that they could make money selling 20lb steel bikes with rim brakes, they would do that, and save the money they spend on R&D and tooling. At the moment, they're suffering from a glut of bikes, and one way to cut costs is to simplify their lineups. And if it made business sense to make all the same models in rim and disc versions, they'd do that. If they sold them in sufficient numbers, they'd keep making them, because, if, say Trek didn't, then Giant would, and increase their market share.

I'm reminded of my sister, who tends to extoll the virtues of cars she owned years ago, like the 1973 Dodge Dart her FIL gave them when they got married - "Why don' they make that car anymore? If they did, I'd buy one!" - Really? Would you? And even if YOU did, how many more people would look at a boxy 1973 Dart and say, "Yeah, I want a car with an underpowered slant six, a solid rear axle on leaf springs, and points-and-condenser ignition system!"
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Old 03-14-24, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
^ hasnt looked at the Trek website in years.
Your superficially reasonable conclusion is actually an assumption, a non-sequitur, and incorrect.

But, I should get a life, too.
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Old 03-14-24, 12:31 PM
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I use my smart phone for controlling my smart trainer and for texting on the rare occasions I need to text. Otherwise, I carry it with me on the bike, for emergencies. I leave it turned off much of the time at home, and I leave it turned off 100% of the time when I'm out riding.
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Old 03-14-24, 12:32 PM
  #372  
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Your superficially reasonable conclusion is actually an assumption, a non-sequitur, and incorrect.
But, I should get a life, too.
Wow, Fredo is coming out swinging today!

I took your earlier post as you claiming Trek has way too many black bikes. If that isnt what you were trying to say, what were you trying to say?
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Old 03-14-24, 12:51 PM
  #373  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Wow, Fredo is coming out swinging today!

I took your earlier post as you claiming Trek has way too many black bikes. If that isnt what you were trying to say, what were you trying to say?
Two separate things:

That Trek intends to reduce the variety in their offerings.
And that so many bikes offered by bicycle companies these days lack color options, just as the 'Model T' did 100 years ago.

I like the fact that many Trek models are/were available in color.

Last edited by Fredo76; 03-14-24 at 01:15 PM. Reason: not 200 years, 100 years
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Old 03-14-24, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Wow, Fredo is coming out swinging today!
Yes! But nobody's bitten yet...
Your fastest flat-land sprint
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Old 03-14-24, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Two separate things:

That Trek intends to reduce the variety in their offerings.
And that so many bikes offered by bicycle companies these days lack color options, just as the 'Model T' did 100 years ago.

I like the fact that many Trek models are/were available in color.
Colour options tend to be limited today because there are so many more bike spec options compared with decades ago. So for any given bike spec it is usually only practical to offer it in one or two colour options. But I prefer having more bike spec options vs more colour options.
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