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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 04-06-24, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by seypat
Maybe I was being sarcastic. I thought the rant about large flange hubs would give it away. It didn't so that means it was the perfect amount of believable. People are too serious here on BF.

That being said, I do have 3 sets of wheels with large flange hubs. They do have a better ride than small flange. I wish they were still around.
Again, the perfect amount of "believable." Well played.
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Old 04-06-24, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
I must not understand what 'sliding out' means because to me it seems really easy for someone to slide out in a sharp turn, regardless of hub design or spoke lacing and regardless of tire type, if the tire deflates or if the tire loses contact with the ground.
The fact that a tubular tire will stay attached to the rim doesn't mean a wheel won't slide out on a sharp corner if the tire deflates or if the rider hits a bump at a bad angle during the turn.
A shallow box rim won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
The lacing pattern of a wheel won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.




I was responding to Fredo76 whose post I find to be of little value and erroneous because he attaches benefits to something that doesn't inherently contain those claimed benefits.
If someone slides out on a sharp turn using a carbon rim and disc brake, there is 0 reason to think they wouldn't have slid out on that same sharp turn using a box rim with tubular tire and traditional lacing to a low flange hub.
Like really, what does the lacing pattern have to do with anything? Why would a low flange hub stop a wheel from sliding out in a sharp turn better than the hub flange height of a modern hub?...and speaking of, why is Fredo assuming the modern hubs aren't also low flange?


I think his post was bad and contained erroneous information which misdirects the issue and frames the type of equipment he likes in a positive light. So I questioned his comment.
But since you two have responded, I am open to underswtand hat I am missing here. Why would a low flange box rim 3 cross laced tubular wheel not slide out in a sharp turn? And if that can be answered, then this can also be answered- why do carbon rim tubeless wheels with disc brakes slide out in that same sharp turn?
I mean the rear wheel losing traction in the fashion that motorcyclists call a "low-side" crash, without sand, gravel, rain or oil present as an obvious cause. They just seem to me to happen more often on disc wheels, with my woefully inadequate sampling consisting of watching a couple of team time trial stages and being surprised by low-side crashes, as if someone had rolled a tire. I don't know the reason they would be more common, technically, and so supposed what might solve it - older equipment, because I don't recall it happening much before disc wheels. Just a guess, not an engineering claim.

And my conclusion stands, regardless - not crashing is faster than aero.
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Old 04-06-24, 10:43 AM
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I can't say how this fits into modern wheels and tires, but back in the late 70s and 80s my sewup wheels were noticeably better at cornering than my clinchers. It was my impression that the clincher tires were somewhat oval, so grip was lost suddenly if I leaned over the "edge" of the oval. Whereas the tubulars had no edge, so were more predictable. I am far from having very good balance but I was able to catch a skid on the tubulars. On clinchers, I just went bang.
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Old 04-06-24, 11:01 AM
  #604  
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
They just seem to me to happen more often on disc wheels, with my woefully inadequate sampling...

And my conclusion stands, regardless - not crashing is faster than aero.
I didn't question your conclusion, I questioned the reasoning you used to reach your conclusion. The fact that you don't understand I was questioning your reasoning, even though I laid out in detail why I question your reasoning, is spot on for this conversation.
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Old 04-06-24, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Aubergine
I can't say how this fits into modern wheels and tires, but back in the late 70s and 80s my sewup wheels were noticeably better at cornering than my clinchers. It was my impression that the clincher tires were somewhat oval, so grip was lost suddenly if I leaned over the "edge" of the oval. Whereas the tubulars had no edge, so were more predictable. I am far from having very good balance but I was able to catch a skid on the tubulars. On clinchers, I just went bang.
I rode/raced on tubulars exclusively from 1964 to about 1990, and I don't remember my clinchers, once I made the transition, being noticeably inferior to tubulars for cornering. I'd crashed enough times on tubulars by then to have likely become more cautious at cornering, both on tubulars and on clinchers, though.
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Old 04-06-24, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
I didn't question your conclusion, I questioned the reasoning you used to reach your conclusion. The fact that you don't understand I was questioning your reasoning, even though I laid out in detail why I question your reasoning, is spot on for this conversation.
Please instruct me on how to Ignore a member. Does this forum have that feature? How do I do it? I'm serious.

I've got a list, of people who like to argue about arguing, it seems.
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Old 04-06-24, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Please instruct me on how to Ignore a member. Does this forum have that feature? How do I do it? I'm serious.

I've got a list, of people who like to argue about arguing, it seems.
Is that list pretty much just as long as the list of others who question your reasoning behind some comments and claims?
I bet it is...




Click on my screen name. Go to my profile. Go to user lists. Select 'ignore.
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Old 04-06-24, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
I mean the rear wheel losing traction in the fashion that motorcyclists call a "low-side" crash, without sand, gravel, rain or oil present as an obvious cause. They just seem to me to happen more often on disc wheels, with my woefully inadequate sampling consisting of watching a couple of team time trial stages and being surprised by low-side crashes, as if someone had rolled a tire. I don't know the reason they would be more common, technically, and so supposed what might solve it - older equipment, because I don't recall it happening much before disc wheels. Just a guess, not an engineering claim.

And my conclusion stands, regardless - not crashing is faster than aero.
It might help if you could point to the actual TTs you were watching. Usually when they slide out it is because the grip level was unexpectedly low or they chose the wrong tyre compound for the conditions eg Bissenger when he crashed twice in the 2022 TDF TT.

Disc wheels are sensitive to crosswind, so that could be a factor in certain cases, but otherwise I don’t see much relevance. The pros push the limits in cornering and TT bikes are not the easiest handling.

Your suggestion of using old equipment would guarantee losing before they even left the starting gate. Sometimes it’s a case of win or bust in a TT.
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Old 04-06-24, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76
Please instruct me on how to Ignore a member. Does this forum have that feature? How do I do it? I'm serious.

I've got a list, of people who like to argue about arguing, it seems.
Here's how I do it:

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Old 05-05-24, 11:59 AM
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From Cycling News L9ive Updates:

"Pogačar is just over 20" back on the Ineos Grenadiers led peloton. He has a front puncture and the tyre came off as he went round a bend. UAE Team Emirates get him back to the bunch as they start the climb to the sanctuary of Oropa."

Tubulars probably wouldn't have prevented that crash but they would ensured that if Pogačar did go down, it would just be the routine slide we all shaved our legs for.
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Old 05-05-24, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
From Cycling News L9ive Updates:

"Pogačar is just over 20" back on the Ineos Grenadiers led peloton. He has a front puncture and the tyre came off as he went round a bend. UAE Team Emirates get him back to the bunch as they start the climb to the sanctuary of Oropa."

Tubulars probably wouldn't have prevented that crash but they would ensured that if Pogačar did go down, it would just be the routine slide we all shaved our legs for.
Incorrect. Tire did not come off wheel.

https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml

Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
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Old 05-05-24, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Incorrect. Tire did not come off wheel.

https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml

Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
Does anyone know if Pog is running tubeless or tubes? Punctures like this are rare on tubeless.
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Old 05-05-24, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Does anyone know if Pog is running tubeless or tubes? Punctures like this are rare on tubeless.
Watch the video closely, and it appears that sealant sprays out of the tire (onto the road) when it goes out from under him. But it was already flat -- his mistake was not stopping immediately to get his backup bike.

​​​​​​By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.

Last edited by Koyote; 05-05-24 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 05-05-24, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Incorrect. Tire did not come off wheel.

https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml

Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
"Eurosport not available in your area"

Here's the same video on YouTube:


Rather than stopping completely before the turn, silly boy tries to turn with a front puncture.
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Old 05-05-24, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Rather than stopping completely before the turn, silly boy tries to turn with a front puncture.
And almost got run over by his own team car, who was following rather close.
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Old 05-05-24, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Watch the video closely, and it appears that sealant sprays out of the tire (onto the road) when it goes out from under him. But it was already flat -- his mistake was not stopping immediately to get his backup bike.

​​​​​​By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
I see it now when watching full screen, well spotted.
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Old 05-05-24, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Watch the video closely, and it appears that sealant sprays out of the tire (onto the road) when it goes out from under him. But it was already flat -- his mistake was not stopping immediately to get his backup bike.

​​​​​​By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
But riding the bumpy cobbles pavement, (I viewed that video) on the rubber of a tubular is easier (and less nerve-racking) than doing it on bare carbon (from Pogacar's words after). He was riding on to get to a better place for the team car to stop and assist him. Again, his words.

Last edited by 79pmooney; 05-05-24 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 05-05-24, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
But riding the bumpy cobbles pavement, (I viewed that video) on the rubber of a tubular is easier (and less nerve-racking) than doing it on bare carbon (from Pogacar's words after). He was riding on to get to a better place for the team car to stop and assist him. Again, his words.
There’s no evidence to suggest that he would have fared any better with a tubular tire… But that won’t stop you from reaching your predetermined conclusions. We all know that about you.
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Old 05-05-24, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
There’s no evidence to suggest that he would have fared any better with a tubular tire… But that won’t stop you from reaching your predetermined conclusions. We all know that about you.
That wasn't much of a corner ans he wasn't going very fast. Rubber, even deflated rubber on that smooth asphalt should have done fine. But aluminum would be scary as s***. I know. I've done it. Now, maybe CF is better. Simply don't know.
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Old 05-05-24, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
But riding the bumpy cobbles pavement, (I viewed that video) on the rubber of a tubular is easier (and less nerve-racking) than doing it on bare carbon (from Pogacar's words after). He was riding on to get to a better place for the team car to stop and assist him. Again, his words.
So literally every time someone crashes are you are going to say they would have been better off on tubulars? I hope not because it will get really old after a while.
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Old 05-05-24, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
So literally every time someone crashes are you are going to say they would have been better off on tubulars? I hope not because it will get really old after a while.
It's already old.

We've got a handful of posters who believe that, since they were better back in the old days, everything else must've been better, too.
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Old 05-05-24, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
There’s no evidence to suggest that he would have fared any better with a tubular tire… But that won’t stop you from reaching your predetermined conclusions. We all know that about you.
He would not have been left riding on a bare rim. Looking at how he went down it was almost immediate when he started turning. On a rim with a tubular glued on he would not have slid out like that.
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Old 05-05-24, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by waters60
He would not have been left riding on a bare rim. Looking at how he went down it was almost immediate when he started turning. On a rim with a tubular glued on he would not have slid out like that.
I think a well written letter written to the team outlining your amazing insights perhaps you could score a paid position proving advice giving the team a substantial competitive advantage. Many ancient societies valued those oral historians who instructed others of best practices learned and almost forgotten.
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Old 05-05-24, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by waters60
He would not have been left riding on a bare rim. Looking at how he went down it was almost immediate when he started turning. On a rim with a tubular glued on he would not have slid out like that.
Try to make an abrupt 90-degree turn on any deflated front tire, including a tubular, as Pogačar unwisely did, and you're going to slide out. (It's clear from the slo-mo replay that the tire stayed in place on the rim and thus behaved as a tubular would have under the same conditions.) I rode tubulars from the early '60's to the early '90's. They were fine. So are the various flavors of tubed and tubeless non-tubulars.
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Old 05-05-24, 08:39 PM
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I think we can all agree that he wouldn't have gone down if he'd just been riding one of those airless tires.
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