Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 02-27-24, 02:18 PM
  #101  
Senior Member
 
elcruxio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Turku, Finland, Europe
Posts: 2,509

Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 873 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Vittoria Air-Liner Road Test | Bicycle Rolling Resistance

Again, the Vittoria testing.

Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested. So if hookless were to be counted as a performance road solution, then the system should have the ability to handle these pressures, plus a healthy safety margin.
You again reveal your complete lack of understanding of how tire pressure works. the BRR test is a drum test, which means they do not test the tires with a rider riding a bike. Now as it happens, the rider part is actually somewhat crucial to the whole bike riding experience so we can't just use non rider data.

Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
elcruxio is offline  
Old 02-27-24, 02:27 PM
  #102  
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 461 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio
You again reveal your complete lack of understanding of how tire pressure works. the BRR test is a drum test, which means they do not test the tires with a rider riding a bike. Now as it happens, the rider part is actually somewhat crucial to the whole bike riding experience so we can't just use non rider data.

Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
Really? I thought BRR.com puts 40kg of weight on the wheel to simulate the rider's body weight? 70kg rider, 10kg bike, 80 kg total. Divide by two because the bike has two wheels. 40kg weight on each wheel. Seems like a reasonable test weight.

Which test shows resistance going up with high pressure even on a velodrome? Curious to read this test. If this is true then it would be quite incredible.

Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 02:30 PM.
Yan is offline  
Old 02-27-24, 03:32 PM
  #103  
Senior Member
 
elcruxio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Turku, Finland, Europe
Posts: 2,509

Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 873 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
Really? I thought BRR.com puts 40kg of weight on the wheel to simulate the rider's body weight? 70kg rider, 10kg bike, 80 kg total. Divide by two because the bike has two wheels. 40kg weight on each wheel. Seems like a reasonable test weight.

Which test shows resistance going up with high pressure even on a velodrome? Curious to read this test. If this is true then it would be quite incredible.
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.

Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.

Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.

And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
elcruxio is offline  
Likes For elcruxio:
Old 02-27-24, 04:06 PM
  #104  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,055

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4010 Post(s)
Liked 7,517 Times in 3,025 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
Yep.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 02-27-24, 04:17 PM
  #105  
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 461 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.

Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.

Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.

And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
Thanks, I've bookmarked that link and will study it.
Yan is offline  
Old 02-27-24, 04:26 PM
  #106  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,219

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10550 Post(s)
Liked 12,129 Times in 6,210 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.

Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.

Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.

And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
Membranes, actually, unless you're a plant.
/pedantic biologist
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 02-27-24, 04:55 PM
  #107  
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,710

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11054 Post(s)
Liked 7,601 Times in 4,240 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
Maybe not MSRP, but they can regularly found at that price.

As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs $1335 with freight.

LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
Maybe they can be regulary found at that price, but a quick search didn't show that.
Anyways, a set of btlos 45mm wheels with premium level hooked 23mm internal and 29mm external rims(so similar to 303s), bitex312 hubs, Pilar Aero spokes, brass nipples, and no holes in the rim bed cost $717 and weigh 1473g. Lighter and less expensive, despite hooked. It's a 3.5year warranty and not lifetime, but I don't view that as worth the cost difference. And let's not claim the hubs are of measurable different quality.



Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 02-27-24, 06:29 PM
  #108  
Senior Member
 
Dave Mayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,511
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 485 Times in 284 Posts
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.

A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.

Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
Dave Mayer is offline  
Old 02-27-24, 06:48 PM
  #109  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,776
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4571 Post(s)
Liked 5,108 Times in 3,153 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.

A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.

Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
Do you really need to ride 23mm tyres?
PeteHski is online now  
Old 02-27-24, 07:53 PM
  #110  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,703
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 1,375 Times in 699 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.

A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.

Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
Completely ludicrous.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 03:57 AM
  #111  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Maybe they can be regulary found at that price, but a quick search didn't show that.
Anyways, a set of btlos 45mm wheels with premium level hooked 23mm internal and 29mm external rims(so similar to 303s), bitex312 hubs, Pilar Aero spokes, brass nipples, and no holes in the rim bed cost $717 and weigh 1473g. Lighter and less expensive, despite hooked. It's a 3.5year warranty and not lifetime, but I don't view that as worth the cost difference. And let's not claim the hubs are of measurable different quality.



Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
Nobody is ignoring anything. There isn’t a point of comparison to the 303S hooked other than a rim brake hooked 303 firecrest wheel that’s $700 more MSRP.

Before the 303S you couldn’t buy a new set of Zipp wheels at this price point
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 05:23 AM
  #112  
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 461 Posts
Originally Posted by elcruxio

Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
Originally Posted by elcruxio
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance

BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.

Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.

Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.

And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
I had time today to fully read the link you posted.

According to this study, for a tire on coarse asphalt, rolling resistance decreases when pressure increases, up to 100psi. Above 100psi, the resistance starts to become worse again. So the optimal pressure for the lowest rolling resistance is 100psi.

Am I missing something? Hookless cannot safely reach 100psi, so according to the study that you provided, one will never be able to run the most optimal pressure on a hookless rim. That's terrible. What's going on? Why should anyone ever buy hookless then?

This study also didn't include testing on a velodrome surface. I'd be curious to read the study you were talking about that involved a velodrome surface.
Yan is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 09:33 AM
  #113  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Visited my local bike dealer recently. One of the 'big three'. Most of the higher end road and gravel options came hookless, with a small selection of 'approved' tire options. Of course these options were only sold through the dealer network, and they were all bloody expensive.
What a load of horse ****. What tires are only available for big hookless only through a dealer network? Be specific. You can buy any number of hookless compatibles tires in the $50-60 range.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 09:35 AM
  #114  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Given that hookless rims are genuinely cheaper to produce, it at least allows the manufacturer to price more competitively if necessary.

Zipp wheels are competitively priced, but for me the pressure tolerances are too marginal to consider them at any price.
Gotcha, I’m usually in the 170-175# range so I have lots of room. Currently running 28s at 58f, 62r.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 09:42 AM
  #115  
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,710

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11054 Post(s)
Liked 7,601 Times in 4,240 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
Nobody is ignoring anything. There isn’t a point of comparison to the 303S hooked other than a rim brake hooked 303 firecrest wheel that’s $700 more MSRP.
<insert Picard facepalm gif>.
Bud, you just repeated my point as if its your point! Your initial comment was an attempt to compare the 303S and I(as well as another) pushed back on your comment and questioned how you make the claim when there is no comparison. Now here you are telling me the 303S cant be compared.
Good lord, the point flew way over your head on this.

Trakhak- Yes. That was my point. I'm also dubious about the claim that the reduced cost of manufacture is being passed on to the customer.
phrantic09- I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for $900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
Petehski in response to you- Is there an equivalent hooked version to compare pricing?
Me in response to you- What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on. When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel.
phrantic09- you then replied with an LB hooked wheelset that costs more than your wheels, as if that means anything.
Me in response to you- I then cited a BTLOS hooked wheelset that is lighter and costs less than you wheels, because if your example is meaningful then mine is too. To be clear, neither are meaningful when applied to your initial claim that cost savings were passed on due to the price of your Zipp 303S wheelset.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?



And now here we are- with you telling me the 303S cost cant be compared to a hooked ZIPP option, even though you started this entire exchange with the claim that lower cost was passed on with your wheelset because it is hookless.




Before the 303S you couldn’t buy a new set of Zipp wheels at this price point
Thats because ZIPP hadnt made a carbon rim disc wheel at the $1300 pricepoint before the 303S was released. The 302 DB wheelset, which is basically what the 303S replaced, had a $1500MSRP. The 302 DB rim profile was pretty dated when it was introduced in 2018 so when the 303S was released, it was a totally different rim profile design because the market required it.
Further, in the time between when the 302 DB was released and the 303S was released, the price of entry level carbon wheels(which the 303S is), was pushed down due to increased adoption and increased product competition. So when Zipp introduced a redesigned entry level carbon wheel, they priced it accordingly. Pricing it based on what the market will accept is entirely different from pricing it based on lower manufacturing costs. One is influenced by external factors and one is influenced by internal factors.

Ill throw you a bone- a Zipp product manager does claim hookless has reduced weight and price for Zipp's wheels.
How much? Who knows. Is it even true or is it just a cited reason when a significant % of price drops are actually due to other reasons? Who knows. Its a product manager's words. The industry is littered with comically BS performance and price claims from product managers. But we tend to believe what we want to believe, even when no actual evidence is provided.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 09:46 AM
  #116  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,776
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4571 Post(s)
Liked 5,108 Times in 3,153 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
I had time today to fully read the link you posted.

According to this study, for a tire on coarse asphalt, rolling resistance decreases when pressure increases, up to 100psi. Above 100psi, the resistance starts to become worse again. So the optimal pressure for the lowest rolling resistance is 100psi.

Am I missing something? Hookless cannot safely reach 100psi, so according to the study that you provided, one will never be able to run the most optimal pressure on a hookless rim. That's terrible. What's going on? Why should anyone ever buy hookless then?

This study also didn't include testing on a velodrome surface. I'd be curious to read the study you were talking about that involved a velodrome surface.
You are missing the fact that these results are only valid for 23 and 25c tyres.
PeteHski is online now  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 02-28-24, 11:00 AM
  #117  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,896
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1466 Post(s)
Liked 1,492 Times in 875 Posts
People don't really seek out hookless rims as a feature, do they? I get that Zipp and Enve try to make it a selling point by claiming some minuscule weight savings or aero gain, but I don't know anyone who was like "gotta upgrade these hooked rims to hookless". Everyone I know on hookless rims either bought them without really understanding what they were buying, or they tolerate the hookless aspect because they liked the price, weight, dimensions, etc.

I own Zipp 303s. I purchased them for around $1000 a few years ago and they've been trouble free, I don't seem to have any problems finding a variety of compatible tires in road and gravel sizes and don't run tires narrower than 28mm or pressure above 65psi.

That said, I would've absolutely bought hooked rims if they were available in this price point with the same dimensions, warranty, weight, etc. When I was shopping, the hooked options either cost a lot more, had narrower dimensions, or came from online companies that seem a little risky. Zipp offers a lifetime warranty on these wheels and I purchased through a LBS who can assist with any warranty claims, both of which were compelling selling points for me.
msu2001la is offline  
Likes For msu2001la:
Old 02-28-24, 11:34 AM
  #118  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
<insert Picard facepalm gif>.
Bud, you just repeated my point as if its your point! Your initial comment was an attempt to compare the 303S and I(as well as another) pushed back on your comment and questioned how you make the claim when there is no comparison. Now here you are telling me the 303S cant be compared.
Good lord, the point flew way over your head on this.

Trakhak- Yes. That was my point. I'm also dubious about the claim that the reduced cost of manufacture is being passed on to the customer.
phrantic09- I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for $900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
Petehski in response to you- Is there an equivalent hooked version to compare pricing?
Me in response to you- What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on. When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel.
phrantic09- you then replied with an LB hooked wheelset that costs more than your wheels, as if that means anything.
Me in response to you- I then cited a BTLOS hooked wheelset that is lighter and costs less than you wheels, because if your example is meaningful then mine is too. To be clear, neither are meaningful when applied to your initial claim that cost savings were passed on due to the price of your Zipp 303S wheelset.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?



And now here we are- with you telling me the 303S cost cant be compared to a hooked ZIPP option, even though you started this entire exchange with the claim that lower cost was passed on with your wheelset because it is hookless.





Thats because ZIPP hadnt made a carbon rim disc wheel at the $1300 pricepoint before the 303S was released. The 302 DB wheelset, which is basically what the 303S replaced, had a $1500MSRP. The 302 DB rim profile was pretty dated when it was introduced in 2018 so when the 303S was released, it was a totally different rim profile design because the market required it.
Further, in the time between when the 302 DB was released and the 303S was released, the price of entry level carbon wheels(which the 303S is), was pushed down due to increased adoption and increased product competition. So when Zipp introduced a redesigned entry level carbon wheel, they priced it accordingly. Pricing it based on what the market will accept is entirely different from pricing it based on lower manufacturing costs. One is influenced by external factors and one is influenced by internal factors.

Ill throw you a bone- a Zipp product manager does claim hookless has reduced weight and price for Zipp's wheels.
How much? Who knows. Is it even true or is it just a cited reason when a significant % of price drops are actually due to other reasons? Who knows. Its a product manager's words. The industry is littered with comically BS performance and price claims from product managers. But we tend to believe what we want to believe, even when no actual evidence is provided.
I gave a specific example of closely related wheels and you provided another. 302 to 303S saw a $200 drop in price. I have no desire to enter into a continued debate about this, the simple fact that you can buy wheels from Zipp and Enve in the low 1000s is evidence enough of price savings of hookless being passed on. One would expect the cost of wheels to increase over time, not the opposite. If you want to continue with the pedantry, knock yourself out.

It’s just silly to think hookless is some big conspiracy to increase margins while not caring about safety or that it is this big confusing mess.

A simple google search gives you everything you need to know about compatibility and they are not hard to maintain. Pump less than 73 PSI, ride your bike, top off sealant from time to time.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 11:45 AM
  #119  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la
People don't really seek out hookless rims as a feature, do they? I get that Zipp and Enve try to make it a selling point by claiming some minuscule weight savings or aero gain, but I don't know anyone who was like "gotta upgrade these hooked rims to hookless". Everyone I know on hookless rims either bought them without really understanding what they were buying, or they tolerate the hookless aspect because they liked the price, weight, dimensions, etc.

I own Zipp 303s. I purchased them for around $1000 a few years ago and they've been trouble free, I don't seem to have any problems finding a variety of compatible tires in road and gravel sizes and don't run tires narrower than 28mm or pressure above 65psi.

That said, I would've absolutely bought hooked rims if they were available in this price point with the same dimensions, warranty, weight, etc. When I was shopping, the hooked options either cost a lot more, had narrower dimensions, or came from online companies that seem a little risky. Zipp offers a lifetime warranty on these wheels and I purchased through a LBS who can assist with any warranty claims, both of which were compelling selling points for me.
I don’t see it as a feature, but I also don’t see it as the big bogeyman people ITT are making it out to be.

The number one thing I will look for in my next wheelset is internal and external width as well as depth.

I won’t buy hookless from some unknown, but would happily buy Zipp, Enve or the like. Most likely the next set of wheels I buy will be the Reserve 52/63 which have a hook.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 12:04 PM
  #120  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,896
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1466 Post(s)
Liked 1,492 Times in 875 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
I don’t see it as a feature, but I also don’t see it as the big bogeyman people ITT are making it out to be.

The number one thing I will look for in my next wheelset is internal and external width as well as depth.

I won’t buy hookless from some unknown, but would happily buy Zipp, Enve or the like. Most likely the next set of wheels I buy will be the Reserve 52/63 which have a hook.
I think we're saying the same thing. At $1800 you've got a few options for both hooked and hookless. There are far less options for hooked rims at the lower price point where the 303S lives.

Also the use here should be considered. I know several people who bought 303 Firecrest (25mm ID hookless) and exclusively use them for road riding with 28mm at/near the max PSI. I probably would've gone with a hooked rim option if I were them. 25mm ID hookless seems fine for larger tire sizes and lower pressures though.
msu2001la is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 12:45 PM
  #121  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,047
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7089 Post(s)
Liked 11,208 Times in 4,785 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la
I think we're saying the same thing. At $1800 you've got a few options for both hooked and hookless. There are far less options for hooked rims at the lower price point where the 303S lives.

Also the use here should be considered. I know several people who bought 303 Firecrest (25mm ID hookless) and exclusively use them for road riding with 28mm at/near the max PSI. I probably would've gone with a hooked rim option if I were them. 25mm ID hookless seems fine for larger tire sizes and lower pressures though.
Yep. And those lower pressures are commonly used in the types of riding in which rim strikes are more likely -- MTB and gravel.
Koyote is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 12:48 PM
  #122  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,896
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1466 Post(s)
Liked 1,492 Times in 875 Posts
Relevant to the original topic. Vittoria has released a statement saying that Thomas De Gant hit a rock which caused catastrophic rim damage. The crash had nothing to do with hookless rims.

Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.

Vittoria statement
msu2001la is offline  
Old 02-28-24, 01:02 PM
  #123  
Senior Member
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,985

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4864 Post(s)
Liked 4,012 Times in 2,608 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la
Relevant to the original topic. Vittoria has released a statement saying that Thomas De Gant hit a rock which caused catastrophic rim damage. The crash had nothing to do with hookless rims.

Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.

Vittoria statement
I saw that. Cringed. So if as a rider I hit a rock (in pelotons, stuff like that happens. Rocks. WBs don't always get pointed out. De Gendt still had a wheel that passed through he fork with a rim round enough to ride. Good! He was (I believe) still upright. Then his tire came off! And part of the tire system jammed in the fork! The nightmare over the bars crash. Faceplant.

I saw the CPA (pro riders union) is now considering lobbying for a ban on hookless rims. I say, right on! I've done the bike failure over the bars. NOt tires but life changing and not ins a good way. Also jammed a tire in the seatstays. Better than Gendt's but still, multiple broken bones and an acre of road rash. The technology is out there to stop tires coming off. Pro riders should insist.
79pmooney is offline  
Likes For 79pmooney:
Old 02-28-24, 01:02 PM
  #124  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,703
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 1,375 Times in 699 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la
Relevant to the original topic. Vittoria has released a statement saying that Thomas De Gant hit a rock which caused catastrophic rim damage. The crash had nothing to do with hookless rims.

Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.

Vittoria statement
Why ruin a good rant with facts?
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Likes For Atlas Shrugged:
Old 02-28-24, 01:27 PM
  #125  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,896
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1466 Post(s)
Liked 1,492 Times in 875 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I saw that. Cringed. So if as a rider I hit a rock (in pelotons, stuff like that happens. Rocks. WBs don't always get pointed out. De Gendt still had a wheel that passed through he fork with a rim round enough to ride. Good! He was (I believe) still upright. Then his tire came off! And part of the tire system jammed in the fork! The nightmare over the bars crash. Faceplant.

I saw the CPA (pro riders union) is now considering lobbying for a ban on hookless rims. I say, right on! I've done the bike failure over the bars. NOt tires but life changing and not ins a good way. Also jammed a tire in the seatstays. Better than Gendt's but still, multiple broken bones and an acre of road rash. The technology is out there to stop tires coming off. Pro riders should insist.
Does a hooked tire really stay on a broken rim? Seems unlikely.
msu2001la is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.