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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 03-01-24, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
IME, deflations on lower pressure tubeless tyres with sealant are slow and benign. Also very rare. I’ve had 1 in the last 4 years, from a large cut that was too big to self-seal. What happened to TdeG was due to the tyre suddenly coming off the rim, which fortunately I have never experienced on any tyre. I’ve run tubs, clinchers and tubeless setups over the years and tubeless have been the most reliable ie virtually no flats and the easiest by far to repair roadside with a plug kit. I haven’t used “pool noodles” and I don’t think many riders on tubeless use them either. Also never used hookless rims.
I started using tubeless in earnest in 2019. Since then, I have had 0 instances where my tire deflated to an un-rideable pressure. Many times, I do t even realize it happened until I get home and see latex all over the seat tube.
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Old 03-01-24, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
I started using tubeless in earnest in 2019. Since then, I have had 0 instances where my tire deflated to an un-rideable pressure. Many times, I do t even realize it happened until I get home and see latex all over the seat tube.
Same for me, except for the one big cut where I ran over some sharp metal debris on a fast descent. It was the front tyre and it made a hissing sound while spraying a bit of sealant. It deflated slow enough to allow me to brake without any drama. When I stopped it was still not completely flat, but very low pressure. I had to use 2 Dynaplugs to seal it enough to ride home. I scrapped the tyre because the cut was pretty big.

Also occasionally had the tell-tale sealant spray on my seat tube from minor punctures at the end of a ride.
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Old 03-01-24, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
I started using tubeless in earnest in 2019. Since then, I have had 0 instances where my tire deflated to an un-rideable pressure. Many times, I do t even realize it happened until I get home and see latex all over the seat tube.
I've had several. Three of the original GP5000 TL tires had catastrophic sidewall failures. All of them had a couple thousand miles on the clock. One was a front, the other two were on the rear. None of them came off the rim.

We must have more crap on the roads here in the lesser white north. Last year I had two major cuts and I hit a sugar beet that burped the tire. Sugar beets are the same color as the pavement and they are hard to see at times.

All went flat quickly, leaving me riding at 20 MPH or more on a completely flat tire. None of the cuts left me with a rideable tire. No tube and boot. They went in the bin. None of them came off the rim. The burped tire was reinflated and I finished my ride.

And I have had several punctures that sealed up without going completely flat. Some have been rideable, some needed to be pumped up.

Yes, Dave is a bit of a crank. He doesn't understand physics or math, and he loves his tubular tires. Maybe if I rode on tubulars I would be carrying a spare tire... nope, not going to do it. I bet they can come off the rim in some situations.
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Old 03-01-24, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
I've had several. Three of the original GP5000 TL tires had catastrophic sidewall failures. All of them had a couple thousand miles on the clock. One was a front, the other two were on the rear. None of them came off the rim.

We must have more crap on the roads here in the lesser white north. Last year I had two major cuts and I hit a sugar beet that burped the tire. Sugar beets are the same color as the pavement and they are hard to see at times.

All went flat quickly, leaving me riding at 20 MPH or more on a completely flat tire. None of the cuts left me with a rideable tire. No tube and boot. They went in the bin. None of them came off the rim. The burped tire was reinflated and I finished my ride.

And I have had several punctures that sealed up without going completely flat. Some have been rideable, some needed to be pumped up.

Yes, Dave is a bit of a crank. He doesn't understand physics or math, and he loves his tubular tires. Maybe if I rode on tubulars I would be carrying a spare tire... nope, not going to do it. I bet they can come off the rim in some situations.
The original GP5000 TL did have a reputation for fragile sidewalls. Something they improved with the current spec S TR. But if you are looking for something much less fragile and only a little slower, then I can recommend Pirelli Cinturato Velos. Those are pretty bombproof and ride well.
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Old 03-01-24, 11:20 AM
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Zipp and Vittoria both make tubular options that are available to De Gent’s team and would still be “sponsor correct”. Teams aren’t running tubeless as a marketing ploy. They’re running tubeless because they think it gives them the best chance of winning bike races.

It’s weird to me that the same people claiming tubeless tires are dangerous also think pros railing hairpin corners down rainy alpine descents are totally fine running cork rim brake pads on carbon wheels.
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Old 03-01-24, 11:43 AM
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Here:


Tubeless/hookless for performance road cycling is for marketing, manufacturer cost savings and creating proprietary tire/wheel combos that attempt to lock the consumer to the original sale vendor. Just because the marketing propaganda says they are on a certain trendy tire/wheel combo doesn't mean that they are actually being used in competition. Particularly during the critical climbing stages.

And it helps keep a few of the shrill industry influencers on this forum in beer money.

I have 50 bikes to get ready for a spring opening, including hydraulics and di2. The misery of feeding hydraulic lines and mechanical cables/housing though an integrated frameset explains part of the Youtube video question as to why modern high-end so bikes so expensive. It takes a lot of time to set up this stuff. Adding pool noodles and slime and inflating tubeless just adds even more time and costs.

It also helps lock the consumer into a shop because your average weekend warrior used to be able to replace rim brake pads and shift housing and fix a flat. No longer. We have an increasing influx of folks coming into see us to: "borrow an air compressor".
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Old 03-01-24, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
Zipp and Vittoria both make tubular options that are available to De Gent’s team and would still be “sponsor correct”. Teams aren’t running tubeless as a marketing ploy. They’re running tubeless because they think it gives them the best chance of winning bike races.

It’s weird to me that the same people claiming tubeless tires are dangerous also think pros railing hairpin corners down rainy alpine descents are totally fine running cork rim brake pads on carbon wheels.
They will use any argument, however spurious, to convince themselves that their choices are still the best anyone can possibly get. Simple personal preference does not appear to be enough for them and so they have to invent reasons why their choice must be superior.

Meanwhile the pro teams are only interested in whatever is actually fastest. Of course they have individual sponsorship obligations but the top teams are usually sponsored by top tier brand gear anyway. Being forced to ride the latest S-Works or Cervelo on Conti or Vitoria tyres is very unlikely to be a major compromise in performance! As you point out, they are free to use tubulars if they prefer them, but they rarely do now. We see them occasionally on high mountain stages, but less and less each year.
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Old 03-01-24, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I have 50 bikes to get ready for a spring opening, including hydraulics and di2. The misery of feeding hydraulic lines and mechanical cables/housing though an integrated frameset explains part of the Youtube video question as to why modern high-end so bikes so expensive. It takes a lot of time to set up this stuff. Adding pool noodles and slime and inflating tubeless just adds even more time and costs.
Sounds like you need to find a different job.
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Old 03-01-24, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Here:

Peak Torque on Bike Marketing, Real World Aero Savings and Hookless Dangers (youtube.com)

Tubeless/hookless for performance road cycling is for marketing, manufacturer cost savings and creating proprietary tire/wheel combos that attempt to lock the consumer to the original sale vendor. Just because the marketing propaganda says they are on a certain trendy tire/wheel combo doesn't mean that they are actually being used in competition. Particularly during the critical climbing stages.

And it helps keep a few of the shrill industry influencers on this forum in beer money.

I have 50 bikes to get ready for a spring opening, including hydraulics and di2. The misery of feeding hydraulic lines and mechanical cables/housing though an integrated frameset explains part of the Youtube video question as to why modern high-end so bikes so expensive. It takes a lot of time to set up this stuff. Adding pool noodles and slime and inflating tubeless just adds even more time and costs.

It also helps lock the consumer into a shop because your average weekend warrior used to be able to replace rim brake pads and shift housing and fix a flat. No longer. We have an increasing influx of folks coming into see us to: "borrow an air compressor".
Generally, when one makes an assertion of this magnitude, if one wishes to be taken seriously rather than being thought of as a paranoid crank, one has to supply some kind of verification.
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Old 03-01-24, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Generally, when one makes an assertion of this magnitude, if one wishes to be taken seriously rather than being thought of as a paranoid crank, one has to supply some kind of verification.
Yeah if they were all secretly racing tubulars then there would be no backlash against hookless rims. We know that a few riders still use tubulars occasionally on big mountain stages, but it’s getting pretty rare now. Tubeless is now by far the primary choice.
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Old 03-01-24, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
The original GP5000 TL did have a reputation for fragile sidewalls. Something they improved with the current spec S TR. But if you are looking for something much less fragile and only a little slower, then I can recommend Pirelli Cinturato Velos. Those are pretty bombproof and ride well.
One of the cut tires was a Vittoria Corsa, as was the burped tire. The other cut tire was a Goodyear Eagle. The Corsa just isn't as nice as the GP5000. The Eagle seemed like a good tire.My riding covers a lot of roads that are crossed by gravel roads and I suspect that one of the cuts came from a sharp piece of gravel. The other was definitely a broken dark brown beer bottle.

I keep coming back to GP5000 tires because... because I like them. Haven't tried the Pirellis yet. I hope I have tires lined up for 2024, 28mm GP5000 S TR are on the shelf ready to go on the Scylon and 32mm GP5000 TL are on the tandem. Only the 25mm had failing sidewalls under me.

We wore the first set of 32mm GP5000 TL on the tandem down to the cords with no problems. Put a second set on and have a third on the shelf in the cold dark garage.

One aside, when I put the GP5000 tires on the tandem, the first ride Mrs. Dan wanted to know what I had done to make the bike so much more stable in corners and comfortable to ride. Easy answer; I put the Marathon on the shelf and put on GP5000.
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Old 03-02-24, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Here:

Peak Torque on Bike Marketing, Real World Aero Savings and Hookless Dangers (youtube.com)

Tubeless/hookless for performance road cycling is for marketing, manufacturer cost savings and creating proprietary tire/wheel combos that attempt to lock the consumer to the original sale vendor. Just because the marketing propaganda says they are on a certain trendy tire/wheel combo doesn't mean that they are actually being used in competition. Particularly during the critical climbing stages.

And it helps keep a few of the shrill industry influencers on this forum in beer

It also helps lock the consumer into a shop because your average weekend warrior used to be able to replace rim brake pads and shift housing and fix a flat. No longer. We have an increasing influx of folks coming into see us to: "borrow an air compressor".
Wait you run / work in a shop? I bet your customers love you… you think so highly of them.

With a hookless compatible tire I can seat just about anything with a crappy Blackburn track pump I bought in 2012.

Also, as a relatively mechanically inept idiot I was able to build up a fully internal bike, bleed the brakes, etc watching a few YouTube videos. It actually took longer to get the FD set up than to run brake hoses through the frame, stem and bars. It can’t be that bad for a trained mechanic.
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Old 03-02-24, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
One of the cut tires was a Vittoria Corsa, as was the burped tire. The other cut tire was a Goodyear Eagle. The Corsa just isn't as nice as the GP5000. The Eagle seemed like a good tire.My riding covers a lot of roads that are crossed by gravel roads and I suspect that one of the cuts came from a sharp piece of gravel. The other was definitely a broken dark brown beer bottle.

I keep coming back to GP5000 tires because... because I like them. Haven't tried the Pirellis yet. I hope I have tires lined up for 2024, 28mm GP5000 S TR are on the shelf ready to go on the Scylon and 32mm GP5000 TL are on the tandem. Only the 25mm had failing sidewalls under me.

We wore the first set of 32mm GP5000 TL on the tandem down to the cords with no problems. Put a second set on and have a third on the shelf in the cold dark garage.

One aside, when I put the GP5000 tires on the tandem, the first ride Mrs. Dan wanted to know what I had done to make the bike so much more stable in corners and comfortable to ride. Easy answer; I put the Marathon on the shelf and put on GP5000.
My local roads are pretty rough too, including a few farm tracks which you might describe as light gravel. But the GP5000S TR has coped really well. No serious cuts and just a couple of small self-sealing punctures in 2 seasons. I had less luck with Pirelli P Zeros, both written off with nasty cuts in less than 500 km. Pirelli Cinturatos however are very robust, but also surprisingly fast. I have these on my spare bike and they don’t feel that slow compared to GP5000s and the grip is excellent. I still prefer the GP5000S and they are durable enough for my riding, but the Cinturatos are next level in puncture resistance. They often get recommended as a fast winter training tyre for this reason. So an option to consider if you are regularly getting cuts.
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Old 03-02-24, 12:10 PM
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BTW, the UCI is now looking into hookless rims with tubeless tires, "with a view to reaching a decision".

If the UCI bans their use, watch hookless road rims disappear quickly from the market.

Good riddance.
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Old 03-02-24, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
BTW, the UCI is now looking into hookless rims with tubeless tires, "with a view to reaching a decision".

If the UCI bans their use, watch hookless road rims disappear quickly from the market.
I'm not sure I would jump to that conclusion. After all, the UCI banned disc brakes for a while, and they didn't disappear from the market.
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Old 03-02-24, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I'm not sure I would jump to that conclusion. After all, the UCI banned disc brakes for a while, and they didn't disappear from the market.
The difference there was that disc brakes were not objectively bad.
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Old 03-02-24, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
The difference there was that disc brakes were not objectively bad.
Sure, that might lead to them disappearing from the market, but that's a different driving force than a ban by the UCI.
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Old 03-02-24, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
BTW, the UCI is now looking into hookless rims with tubeless tires, "with a view to reaching a decision".

If the UCI bans their use, watch hookless road rims disappear quickly from the market.

Good riddance.
not happening.. I'll gladly keep using mine regardless.
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Old 03-02-24, 02:10 PM
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So if the UCI bans them, does that mean that hookless is "getting the hook?"

Last edited by seypat; 03-02-24 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 03-02-24, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
Wait you run / work in a shop? I bet your customers love you… you think so highly of them.

With a hookless compatible tire I can seat just about anything with a crappy Blackburn track pump I bought in 2012.

Also, as a relatively mechanically inept idiot I was able to build up a fully internal bike, bleed the brakes, etc watching a few YouTube videos. It actually took longer to get the FD set up than to run brake hoses through the frame, stem and bars. It can’t be that bad for a trained mechanic.
Have you ridden that bike yet? I'll bet it falls into pieces the moment you leave your garage.

There is nothing on a disc/internal routing bike that requires a degree in rocket science. It just takes some patience and a little time to learn some tricks. Bikes, no matter how expensive and trendy are not F1 cars or moon shots.
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Old 03-02-24, 05:17 PM
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I subject this to my 50mph razor.
If I was going downhill at 50mph, would I wish my rims were hooked or hookless? And I am going to go with hooked, but looking forward with safety data from early adapters.
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Old 03-03-24, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo31
Have you ridden that bike yet? I'll bet it falls into pieces the moment you leave your garage.

There is nothing on a disc/internal routing bike that requires a degree in rocket science. It just takes some patience and a little time to learn some tricks. Bikes, no matter how expensive and trendy are not F1 cars or moon shots.
The wheels actually fell off after the hot disc rotors melted the hub. Then the tires blew off the rim and sprayed sealant over the entire town and the carbon frame asplosed.
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Old 03-03-24, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bigredgrad01
I subject this to my 50mph razor.
If I was going downhill at 50mph, would I wish my rims were hooked or hookless? And I am going to go with hooked, but looking forward with safety data from early adapters.


50+ downhill on a dirt road with hookless wheels and 28s pumped to 60 PSI. Never once were wheels the concern.
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Old 03-03-24, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
The wheels actually fell off after the hot disc rotors melted the hub. Then the tires blew off the rim and sprayed sealant over the entire town and the carbon frame asplosed.
lucky you didn’t cut off a limb or two.
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Old 03-03-24, 12:48 PM
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https://bikerumor.com/uci-to-perform...fety-concerns/
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