Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 03-03-24, 01:04 PM
  #176  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,781
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4577 Post(s)
Liked 5,116 Times in 3,159 Posts
Not that I care either way, but I would be very surprised if the UCI banned hookless rims. I think that would be an over-reaction and potentially cause supply issues for teams using them. I think it is more likely that they will simply clarify allowable tyre and rim combinations. It will be interesting to see how this goes.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 04:36 AM
  #177  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Not that I care either way, but I would be very surprised if the UCI banned hookless rims. I think that would be an over-reaction and potentially cause supply issues for teams using them. I think it is more likely that they will simply clarify allowable tyre and rim combinations. It will be interesting to see how this goes.
Given how many manufacturers have moved in the hookless direction, I can’t see how they ban the platform outright. But, who knows.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 05:10 AM
  #178  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,781
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4577 Post(s)
Liked 5,116 Times in 3,159 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
Given how many manufacturers have moved in the hookless direction, I can’t see how they ban the platform outright. But, who knows.
Yeah, that was my thinking too. I expect they will just put some procedure in place to certify all tyre/rim combinations used. Half the peloton is probably using hookless rims.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 05:49 AM
  #179  
Senior Member
 
eduskator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,158

Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1025 Post(s)
Liked 594 Times in 447 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Yeah, that was my thinking too. I expect they will just put some procedure in place to certify all tyre/rim combinations used. Half the peloton is probably using hookless rims.
A third party verifier with standardized tests would be great IMO. It would remove the appearance of a conflict of interest.
eduskator is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 06:39 AM
  #180  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,781
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4577 Post(s)
Liked 5,116 Times in 3,159 Posts
Originally Posted by eduskator
A third party verifier with standardized tests would be great IMO. It would remove the appearance of a conflict of interest.
ETRTO is the relevant verifier in this case.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 11:16 PM
  #181  
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 461 Posts
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zip...#disqus_thread

Zipp has released its own statement regarding the incident, mirroring the Vittoria statement that a rock was to blame.

Translation:

"Ok, so try not to hit anything while riding hookless. If the tire comes off, well of course, it's natural. Go to the eye doctor and get some glasses. Steer better next time.

​​​​​​Wasn't impact resistance one of the selling pitches of hookless in the first place? No, that was just a selling pitch. You actually believed it? Next time don't believe advertisements."

Last edited by Yan; 03-04-24 at 11:23 PM.
Yan is offline  
Likes For Yan:
Old 03-04-24, 11:49 PM
  #182  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09


50+ downhill on a dirt road with hookless wheels and 28s pumped to 60 PSI. Never once were wheels the concern.
Thank you for your service in establishing the safety track record for this new technology. 🙏
bigredgrad01 is offline  
Likes For bigredgrad01:
Old 03-05-24, 04:00 AM
  #183  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by bigredgrad01
Thank you for your service in establishing the safety track record for this new technology. 🙏
Thank you for your meaningless contributions to this thread.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 03-05-24, 12:28 PM
  #184  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,257

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3557 Post(s)
Liked 3,716 Times in 1,862 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09
Thank you for your meaningless contributions to this thread.
Nah, that was an on-topic snarky clap back on a "my 90 year-old grandmother smokes two packs a day" anecdote.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 03-05-24, 12:30 PM
  #185  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse
Nah, that was an on-topic snarky clap back on a "my 90 year-old grandmother smokes two packs a day" anecdote.
If you say so.
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 03-05-24, 04:43 PM
  #186  
Method to My Madness
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,823

Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse x2, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata 3

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2051 Post(s)
Liked 1,543 Times in 1,067 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
... ​​​​​​Wasn't impact resistance one of the selling pitches of hookless in the first place? No, that was just a selling pitch. You actually believed it? Next time don't believe advertisements.
Yes, an alleged advantage of hookless is that a hookless wheel sidewall would be more impact resistant. But note that there was no promise that either the tire itself, the entire wheel + tire system, or the rider would survive an impact any better.
SoSmellyAir is online now  
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
Old 03-05-24, 06:26 PM
  #187  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,257

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3557 Post(s)
Liked 3,716 Times in 1,862 Posts
Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
But note that there was no promise that either the tire itself, the entire wheel + tire system, or the rider would survive an impact any better.
Or as well. A hooked but deflated tire has a much better chance or remaining on the rim, long enough usually to come to a safe stop. I've rolled quite a distance on fully deflated tires before safely stopping. Not so sure I could do that on a hookless. Thankfully, I'll never have to put that to the test, because I will never use a hookless setup.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is offline  
Old 03-05-24, 11:18 PM
  #188  
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 461 Posts
Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Yes, an alleged advantage of hookless is that a hookless wheel sidewall would be more impact resistant. But note that there was no promise that either the tire itself, the entire wheel + tire system, or the rider would survive an impact any better.
Ok, so according to you there is no promise of better result during an impact.

And we also know that a flat tire can come off a hookless rim more easily because it can't hook the bead.

Therefore, put 1+1 together, in conclusion, it's a sh*t system. End of story.
Yan is offline  
Old 03-05-24, 11:30 PM
  #189  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 925

Bikes: Time Scylon, Lynskey R350, Ritchey Breakaway, Ritchey Double Switchback, Lynskey Ridgeline, ICAN Fatbike

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Liked 565 Times in 319 Posts
Not really convinced that hookless are or are not a good idea for others, but as a person of unusual size the 73 PSI limit just doesn't pass muster. And I did hit a sugar beet last summer and burped my front tire on a hooked rim, but it stayed on the rim and just needed to be inflated and I was back on my way.
DangerousDanR is offline  
Likes For DangerousDanR:
Old 03-05-24, 11:33 PM
  #190  
Method to My Madness
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,823

Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse x2, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata 3

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2051 Post(s)
Liked 1,543 Times in 1,067 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
Ok, so according to you there is no promise of better result during an impact.

And we also know that a flat tire can come off a hookless rim more easily because it can't hook the bead.

Therefore, put 1+1 together, in conclusion, it's a sh*t system. End of story.
The only improvement regarding impact resistance that I have read about pertains to the hookless wheel sidewalls themselves; no other part of the wheel or the tires were mentioned. I do not have any experience riding hookless because I am too heavy (90 kg) to ride 25 mm or even 28 mm tubeless tires at ideal pressures (per Silca's calculator).
SoSmellyAir is online now  
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
Old 03-06-24, 01:34 AM
  #191  
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 461 Posts
Anyone who rides regularly and doesn't live in a flat area is doing hundreds if not thousands of descents a year. If a wheel has even a 0.1% greater chance of losing a tire after hitting a rock, I'm never going to touch it, even if it's half the cost.

What I learned from this thread is just how many people around here are tighter than a dolphin's ass, so cheap with money that they're willing to increase the risk to their own safety for the sake of saving a few bucks.

A few leftover driplet pennies trickled down after the manufacturers are done saving themselves money. In many high end wheels, zero savings at all compared to competitor wheels. In some cases, a few bucks. Even in the most generous cases, maybe a couple hundred bucks.

Like in a cartoon where a merchant throws some copper pieces on the ground and all the dirt peasants immediately diving into the ditch, some people here would race to drop their pants and take anything up the behind if only it saved them a dollar.

The rider union is pushing for this investigation. When a group of people are riding at motorcycle speeds on a daily basis, suddenly it's a different perspective from the cheap plebs. See how that works?

Last edited by Yan; 03-06-24 at 02:23 AM.
Yan is offline  
Likes For Yan:
Old 03-06-24, 04:48 AM
  #192  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,781
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4577 Post(s)
Liked 5,116 Times in 3,159 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
Anyone who rides regularly and doesn't live in a flat area is doing hundreds if not thousands of descents a year. If a wheel has even a 0.1% greater chance of losing a tire after hitting a rock, I'm never going to touch it, even if it's half the cost.

What I learned from this thread is just how many people around here are tighter than a dolphin's ass, so cheap with money that they're willing to increase the risk to their own safety for the sake of saving a few bucks.

A few leftover driplet pennies trickled down after the manufacturers are done saving themselves money. In many high end wheels, zero savings at all compared to competitor wheels. In some cases, a few bucks. Even in the most generous cases, maybe a couple hundred bucks.

Like in a cartoon where a merchant throws some copper pieces on the ground and all the dirt peasants immediately diving into the ditch, some people here would race to drop their pants and take anything up the behind if only it saved them a dollar.

The rider union is pushing for this investigation. When a group of people are riding at motorcycle speeds on a daily basis, suddenly it's a different perspective from the cheap plebs. See how that works?
I’m sticking with hooked rims to be on the safe side, but there is far too much hyperbole here. Nobody running high-end carbon hookless rims is penny-pinching!

So a rider hits a rock and breaks a rim. There is a big frenzy because of a hookless rim being involved. Much of this frenzy began before the rock strike was even mentioned. It’s right that they are investigating, but it was certainly a knee-jerk reaction. A bit like the disc brakes chopping limbs off scare-mongering.
PeteHski is offline  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 03-06-24, 06:37 AM
  #193  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,563
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,577 Times in 1,533 Posts
There was a 2nd rock on the grassy knoll. I don't think anyone's believing the single rock theory. It's just a conspiracy/cover up by Big Rim/Tire.
seypat is offline  
Likes For seypat:
Old 03-06-24, 07:19 AM
  #194  
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,686

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4781 Post(s)
Liked 1,545 Times in 1,012 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
ETRTO is the relevant verifier in this case.
I was reminded of this inflation chart that Mavic had developed -- believed at the time to reflect ETRTO. It is curious to note the max inflation pressures indicated for the wider width wheels combined with the narrower tires on hookless rims ("TSS" columns). Since this came out, the "engineerstalk" mavic domain has been pulled down. But maybe it was originally correct?

Sy Reene is offline  
Old 03-06-24, 08:11 AM
  #195  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,240

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1102 Post(s)
Liked 560 Times in 447 Posts
I'm one of those guys who reaches speeds of over 50 mph on descents, regularly. My regular 18 continuous miles of mountain descent is in a rock strewn canyon.
​​I watch carefully and often stop to sweep or carry rocks off the shoulder of the road. My bikes all have 25mm IW hookless rims and 28/30mm tires running no more than 55psi. I'm not worried about the hookless rims. All of my carbon wheelsets are from BTLOS. They charge the same price for hooked or hookless wheelsets. Take your pick. Mine all cost under $800, delivered. I also select no spoke access holes, so no rim tape required.

https://btlos.com/all-road/ar-clinch...-carbon-wheels

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-06-24 at 10:39 AM.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 03-06-24, 09:59 AM
  #196  
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,306

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3261 Post(s)
Liked 2,087 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
Anyone who rides regularly and doesn't live in a flat area is doing hundreds if not thousands of descents a year. If a wheel has even a 0.1% greater chance of losing a tire after hitting a rock, I'm never going to touch it, even if it's half the cost.

What I learned from this thread is just how many people around here are tighter than a dolphin's ass, so cheap with money that they're willing to increase the risk to their own safety for the sake of saving a few bucks.
I bought my hookless wheels specifically because I wanted those wheels, not any other reason. If I wanted a set that had hooks, I’d buy them. I’m actually considering some Reserve 52/63s that are semi-hooked as another wheelset. Cheapness has nothing to do with it- but keep making assumptions.

Is your position that that in an impact hard enough to crack the rim, a hooked wheel would have a higher chance of the tire staying on the rim? I just want to make sure I have it straight.

Have you ever inflated a TLR tire on a hookless rim? You know that much like a hooked wheel, the tire bead stays locked with no air pressure on a hookless rim? The only tire I have used that does not also did not stay locked on a hooked rim either (Schwalbe Pro One TLE).
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 03-06-24, 12:18 PM
  #197  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,234

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10559 Post(s)
Liked 12,154 Times in 6,222 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat
There was a 2nd rock on the grassy knoll. I don't think anyone's believing the single rock theory. It's just a conspiracy/cover up by Big Rim/Tire.
When he hit the rock, did his head snap back, and to the left?
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 03-06-24, 12:34 PM
  #198  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,896
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1466 Post(s)
Liked 1,492 Times in 875 Posts
The Zipp 353 NSW has been on the market and in the pro peloton for at least 3 seasons now. Enve has had 25mm ID hookless in the pro peloton for several seasons as well. Why is this being framed as a sudden/new concern that the UCI and/or riders union needs to “urgently” review and take action on? It’s not like this snuck up on them or is a new development.

Are there actually any instances where tires are blowing off without warning when riders are “just riding along”, causing them to crash? DeGent hit a rock so hard that it broke his rim. I’ve never hit something hard enough to break a wheel at high speed, but I have a feeling I’d be crashing even if the tire stayed on.
msu2001la is offline  
Old 03-06-24, 01:11 PM
  #199  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,257

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3557 Post(s)
Liked 3,716 Times in 1,862 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
A bit like the disc brakes chopping limbs off scare-mongering.
Hyperbole aside, the "scare-mongering" and subsequent UCI rule was prompted by some pretty gory injuries in the peloton (no limbs lost but rather ugly cuts down to the bone), and some of the injuries didn't even involve a crash -- they just rubbed against another rider's bike, not that unusual in a race. The sliced up soft tissue injuries were caused by manufacturers leaving a sharp edge on the rotors. Basically, manufacturers were selling a rotating knife with a 90-degree sharp edge.

Manufacturers responded to the UCI rule by doing the absolute minimum: cutting a tiny chamfer on the 90-degree edge to "dull the blade".
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is offline  
Old 03-06-24, 01:32 PM
  #200  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,056
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7093 Post(s)
Liked 11,213 Times in 4,789 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zip...#disqus_thread

Zipp has released its own statement regarding the incident, mirroring the Vittoria statement that a rock was to blame.

Translation:

"Ok, so try not to hit anything while riding hookless. If the tire comes off, well of course, it's natural. Go to the eye doctor and get some glasses. Steer better next time.

​​​​​​Wasn't impact resistance one of the selling pitches of hookless in the first place? No, that was just a selling pitch. You actually believed it? Next time don't believe advertisements."
Originally Posted by Yan
Anyone who rides regularly and doesn't live in a flat area is doing hundreds if not thousands of descents a year. If a wheel has even a 0.1% greater chance of losing a tire after hitting a rock, I'm never going to touch it, even if it's half the cost.

What I learned from this thread is just how many people around here are tighter than a dolphin's ass, so cheap with money that they're willing to increase the risk to their own safety for the sake of saving a few bucks.

A few leftover driplet pennies trickled down after the manufacturers are done saving themselves money. In many high end wheels, zero savings at all compared to competitor wheels. In some cases, a few bucks. Even in the most generous cases, maybe a couple hundred bucks.

Like in a cartoon where a merchant throws some copper pieces on the ground and all the dirt peasants immediately diving into the ditch, some people here would race to drop their pants and take anything up the behind if only it saved them a dollar.

The rider union is pushing for this investigation. When a group of people are riding at motorcycle speeds on a daily basis, suddenly it's a different perspective from the cheap plebs. See how that works?
I know you weren't trying to be funny...But this post is hilarious.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.