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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 03-12-24, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Right on schedule, the industry sycophants, apologists and influencers come out. None of whom have ever used tubulars.
Right on schedule, normal riders simply call out your ridiculous arguments. If you did a poll on how many people are still riding tubulars on the road, even with BF Luddite bias, you would see that almost nobody cares about tubulars anymore.

Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
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Old 03-12-24, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
But do you have a Platinum Card for your ride to the coffee shop?
And did you have to output an extra 200W for an hour simply because you got shelled off the back of the group on your clincher tractor tyres?
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Old 03-12-24, 05:32 AM
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Tubulars should be more popular?

Maybe for the pro's.

I have used them in the past, and the ride is fantastic, but not worth the hassle.

My take is the main benefit for hookless is for ease of manufacture and not really any benefit for the end user (other than maybe trickle-down cost savings).

Pass.
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Old 03-12-24, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Right on schedule, normal riders simply call out your ridiculous arguments. If you did a poll on how many people are still riding tubulars on the road, even with BF Luddite bias, you would see that almost nobody cares about tubulars anymore.

Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
And the claims of lighter weight, forgetting that other than racing, anyone riding tubulars who has any sense carries at least one spare tubular, if not two.

I once managed to flat both tubulars at the same time, necessitating borrowing a tire from another guy. Luckily, that was in the early '80's. By the end of that decade, most of the people I knew who had been riding tubulars had switched to clinchers, so I'd have been out of luck if I'd needed to borrow a spare tubular.

Also was lucky that I was walking my bike the time the stitching on one of my tubulars gave way, resulting in a loud blowout.

That was around 1965, when tubulars were the only game in town for racing bikes. I rode them until about 1990, by which time I was glad to switch to high-performance clinchers for my bikes in the active roster. Haven't ridden my one remaining bike with tubulars for decades.
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Old 03-12-24, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Right on schedule, normal riders simply call out your ridiculous arguments. If you did a poll on how many people are still riding tubulars on the road, even with BF Luddite bias, you would see that almost nobody cares about tubulars anymore.

Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
Didnt read the whole argument, so excuse me for interrupting. The argument for hookless is it being lighter and stronger and cheaper than a hooked rim. Possibly thats true when only assessing the rim. However the issues with tyres blowing off and having to make tyres with extra strong beads and sidewalls to prevent said failure mode, does seem real. A tubular rim is even lighter, the system has no issues with blow offs, burping or snakebites, have no sidewall to bend and the tyre has no seam to the rim and can be run at almost any pressure you like without it coming off of the rim. You do have to learn how to mount it tho.

Now combine that with the claim of TL with sealant being sort of "flat proof". If that was actually true then id argue a tubular system is, by far, the better option. At least in theory. Only botique stuff available these days. Hookless is, by far, the worst, in theory and practice and hookless was abandoned decades ago bc. it didnt work. No its remarketed and the same old issues that caused the industry to move on to hooked rims re apper.
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Old 03-12-24, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Didnt read the whole argument, so excuse me for interrupting. The argument for hookless is it being lighter and stronger and cheaper than a hooked rim. Possibly thats true when only assessing the rim. However the issues with tyres blowing off and having to make tyres with extra strong beads and sidewalls to prevent said failure mode, does seem real. A tubular rim is even lighter, the system has no issues with blow offs, burping or snakebites, have no sidewall to bend and the tyre has no seam to the rim and can be run at almost any pressure you like without it coming off of the rim. You do have to learn how to mount it tho.

Now combine that with the claim of TL with sealant being sort of "flat proof". If that was actually true then id argue a tubular system is, by far, the better option. At least in theory. Only botique stuff available these days. Hookless is, by far, the worst, in theory and practice and hookless was abandoned decades ago bc. it didnt work. No its remarketed and the same old issues that caused the industry to move on to hooked rims re apper.
I agree that there are some potential inherent design advantages with tubulars, but in reality they are very marginal and not worth the extra hassle, which is what really killed them off decades ago for all but pro riders and even they often preferred to train on clinchers for convenience.

Now that tyre development resource is pouring almost exclusively into tubeless, it is not that surprising to see performance matching or exceeding previous tubular performance. The pro teams have now nearly all abandoned tubulars, even when they still have a limited choice.

As an ordinary rider I am more than happy with the ride and performance of modern tubeless tyres and roadside flats are almost non-existent. At least that has been my experience. But guys like Dave Mayer talk as if everyone is brain-washed by “Big Bike” and treat tubulars as some kind of holy grail solution for superior riders who value the ultimate performance advantage. Meanwhile the actual pro riders have to make do with the same “crap” that I have been brainwashed into buying 😂
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Old 03-12-24, 06:41 AM
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Funny how things go. Lots have no problem learning to mount and seat a TL tyre and getting all the associated gadgets and dealing with messy sealant, or spending hours cleaning and waxing chains, to get tiny performance gains.

But dealing with a tubular is out of the question

I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.

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Old 03-12-24, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Yeah, that's how it works. You post your usual silliness, and people respond ... right on schedule. And then they all collect their fat checks from Big Clincher.
We get checks?
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Old 03-12-24, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Funny how things go. Lots have no problem learning to mount and seat a TL tyre and getting all the associated gadgets and dealing with messy sealant, or spending hours cleaning and waxing chains, to get tiny performance gains.

But dealing with a tubular is out of the question

I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
None of this seems worth the effort. There are still a lot of ordinary riders (probably still a majority) who prefer tubed clinchers over tubeless. Pretty much nobody can be bothered with tubulars. So combining tubeless with tubulars is hardly going to win over the average rider on tubed clinchers unless the performance advantage is large, which it clearly isn’t. At best you would see a very marginal gain for all the extra hassle. Roadside repair options are also still limited with tubulars. At least with tubeless you still have the last resort of throwing in a tube to get you rolling if sealant and plugs are not enough. Carrying a lightweight tube or two is far less hassle than carrying a whole tubular tyre.

Anyway, the tyre manufacturers have clearly decided to abandon tubulars due to severe lack of demand, so not much point in discussing them.
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Old 03-12-24, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
I suppose a great rim design is great and all, but what happens if I flat using tubulars?

And also, are bunnies sufficient? They're much easier to get than goats.
I’m not so sure, there is a rent a goat guy right around the corner. Is it safe to have them run along side you on a leash?

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Old 03-12-24, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
We get checks?
Sorry, that was just a figure of speech. As far as I know, everyone gets paid in cash.
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Old 03-12-24, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
But do you have a Platinum Card for your ride to the coffee shop?
Nope. I can’t qualify for the platinum card since I gave all my money to my dentist.

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Sorry, that was just a figure of speech. As far as I know, everyone gets paid in cash.
I get paid in disc brake pads and Orange Seal.
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Old 03-12-24, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Funny how things go. Lots have no problem learning to mount and seat a TL tyre
Which is the same process as mounting and seating a tubed clincher tire. Actually it's a bit easier since there's no chance of pinching a tube.

and getting all the associated gadgets
A track pump?

Ok I'll grant you that dynaplugs are sort of a gadget so there's one special gadget you don't need but is nice to have.

and dealing with messy sealant,
Not really that messy. If you don't have a syringe (see, it's not a necessary gadget! You don't actually need one), you can just pour the sealant in the tire when you're mounting it. Potential mess is dictated by how messy you are doing it.

or spending hours cleaning and waxing chains, to get tiny performance gains.
Well you see waxed chains don't need cleaning. And they don't actually even need the pre cleaning prior to waxing.
And depending how you do it, it's actually less maintenance time than drip lubes. That's why I do it. I've got kids. I don't have the time to be wiping or degreasing chains.

But dealing with a tubular is out of the question
I had to go and check and installing tubulars is a multi day job. That's a hard pass. Mounting tubeless tires takes a few minutes more than mounting tubed clinchers. But even if it took hours longer, it'd still be worth it compared to tubular.

I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
The thing about sealant is that while it's great and does prevent flats to an extent, it's not bulletproof. You do sometimes flat with sealant, which is why many people riding tubeless carry a spare tube in case their sealant and/or plug fails them. So if you do flat you just put a tube in and go on riding.

What happens if sealant and plug fails with a tubular tire?
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Old 03-12-24, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
Add me to the "gave up on the 'sew up'" club. My turning point was when high pressure clinchers on hooked rims came on the market. No more hassle with glue, no more punctures that required an expensive replacement, performance just as good (or better -- lower rolling resistance in some cases). Good riddance to a fussy and delicate bit of tech.

I used to work weekday afternoons and Saturdays in my dad's shop, and I was the designated "sew up puncture repair" person. I didn't like that job.
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Old 03-12-24, 12:25 PM
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Another advantage to tubulars is that you can collect a pile of them during the season and then, in November, look at the pile, sigh, and toss them all out at once.

In fairness, there are several good choices for glued rim tape for affixing tubular tires to the rims these days, I understand. However, I suspect most of the stalwarts here prefer the two-day tube-o-glue ritual.
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Old 03-12-24, 12:46 PM
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I'm not advocating widespread use of of tubulars. 99.9+% of all riders should be on hooked clinchers. The insurmountable performance and safety advantage of the tubular system is only necessary at the elite levels of the sport.


What does make me choke is that the bike industry is attempting to supplant tubulars with hookless clinchers, even for world-tour level riding. This requires ridiculous kludges such as the mandatory use of sealant, very specific stiff-walled tires that are impossible to mount in the field, and pool-noodle inserts in the event that one does (inevitably) have a blowout. The bike industry is thrashing around like a wounded snake attempting to come up with an alternative to tubulars for performance riding. Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card. See: the pros use this!


Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, further tying the user to a shop. A shop that is owned by one of the big-3 bike vendors.


To all those who disagree with me that they don't like tubulars because:
  • They might get a boo-boo (a flat) and then what!!??
  • Or tubulars are not worth the trouble.


Fair enough; ride hooked clinchers. If you want to make tubulars as flat resistant as clinchers, then:
  • Buy heavier-duty tubulars. Not all tubulars are paper-thin race tires.
  • Remove the valve cores and inject 20cc per tire of sealant. Presto, now your tubulars are almost inpeniterable as tubeless with sealant.
  • Don't hit stuff.
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Old 03-12-24, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card.
I thought their target was weekend warriors with platinum cards.
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Old 03-12-24, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I'm not advocating widespread use of of tubulars. 99.9+% of all riders should be on hooked clinchers. The insurmountable performance and safety advantage of the tubular system is only necessary at the elite levels of the sport.


What does make me choke is that the bike industry is attempting to supplant tubulars with hookless clinchers, even for world-tour level riding. This requires ridiculous kludges such as the mandatory use of sealant, very specific stiff-walled tires that are impossible to mount in the field, and pool-noodle inserts in the event that one does (inevitably) have a blowout. The bike industry is thrashing around like a wounded snake attempting to come up with an alternative to tubulars for performance riding. Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card. See: the pros use this!


Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, further tying the user to a shop. A shop that is owned by one of the big-3 bike vendors.


To all those who disagree with me that they don't like tubulars because:
  • They might get a boo-boo (a flat) and then what!!??
  • Or tubulars are not worth the trouble.


Fair enough; ride hooked clinchers. If you want to make tubulars as flat resistant as clinchers, then:
  • Buy heavier-duty tubulars. Not all tubulars are paper-thin race tires.
  • Remove the valve cores and inject 20cc per tire of sealant. Presto, now your tubulars are almost inpeniterable as tubeless with sealant.
  • Don't hit stuff.
I ask the judges - is "gold card" an acceptable substitute for "platinum card" on the Tubular Loon Bingo card?
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Old 03-12-24, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I thought their target was weekend warriors with platinum cards.
Originally Posted by genejockey
I ask the judges - is "gold card" an acceptable substitute for "platinum card" on the Tubular Loon Bingo card?
Great minds, and all that jazz.
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Old 03-12-24, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I ask the judges - is "gold card" an acceptable substitute for "platinum card" on the Tubular Loon Bingo card?
I think it counts. I suspect he downgraded in an attempt to beat the bingo card.
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Old 03-12-24, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I'm not advocating widespread use of of tubulars. 99.9+% of all riders should be on hooked clinchers. The insurmountable performance and safety advantage of the tubular system is only necessary at the elite levels of the sport.
I presume you are one of these "elite" tubular riders then?
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Old 03-12-24, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I think it counts. I suspect he downgraded in an attempt to beat the bingo card.
It won't be long before he downgrades it to pre-payed debit cards.
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Old 03-12-24, 02:41 PM
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I like Dave Mayer.

But
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit,

Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
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Old 03-12-24, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by choddo
I like Dave Mayer.

But
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit,

Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
No.
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Old 03-12-24, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by choddo
I like Dave Mayer.

But
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit,

Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
It's not even remotely true, though it is a useful comment as it is more proof that Dave is not to be taken seriously.
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