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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 03-27-24, 09:26 AM
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So, to tie this back to the original topic, just how many teams have wheel and/or tire sponsors? Because everyone else could run whatever they prefer.
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Old 03-27-24, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I’m not a golfer (only played very casually for a couple of years as a teenager) but it seems like personal equipment choice in golf is far more critical than it is in road biking. I think it is safe to say that any of the pro cyclists could perform just as well on any other team’s bike. Whether they are riding a Cervelo, Specialized, Giant or whatever doesn’t really matter. The hookless debate is simply about safety. Is there a real safety issue or not? That is the only question being asked here.
Exactly. Unfortunately, the pro riders don't have much say in what they get to use. They are speaking up, at least the prez of their association is about a possible safety issue that could endanger their lives, and some ordinary Joes like you and I are moaning about them not keeping their mouths shut. I don't get it.
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Old 03-27-24, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
So, to tie this back to the original topic, just how many teams have wheel and/or tire sponsors? Because everyone else could run whatever they prefer.
I was listening to a bunch of cycling podcasts discussing the hookless controversy, and one of them mentioned that 40% of pro teams are currently using hookless wheels. I did a quick Google search just now and couldn't find any information confirming this though.

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Old 03-27-24, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
Exactly. Unfortunately, the pro riders don't have much say in what they get to use. They are speaking up, at least the prez of their association is about a possible safety issue that could endanger their lives, and some ordinary Joes like you and I are moaning about them not keeping their mouths shut. I don't get it.
Regarding the adoption of technology by professionals, specifically in the case of Ineos, a team with a budget of approximately $55 million. They have taken a marginal gains approach, going as far as providing individual washing machines and dryers for each team member to reduce the chances of saddle sores. However, they refuse to adopt obvious performance gains available to others. This seems tiresome justification used whenever someone doesn't believe in a particular technology. On the other hand, amateurs can use whatever technology they please. Can you explain this discrepancy?"
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Old 03-27-24, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Regarding the adoption of technology by professionals, specifically in the case of Ineos, a team with a budget of approximately $55 million. They have taken a marginal gains approach, going as far as providing individual washing machines and dryers for each team member to reduce the chances of saddle sores. However, they refuse to adopt obvious performance gains available to others. This seems tiresome justification used whenever someone doesn't believe in a particular technology. On the other hand, amateurs can use whatever technology they please. Can you explain this discrepancy?"
i apologize, but you need to rephrase your question/questions because I have no idea what you're wanting me to answer. maybe someone else can rephrase it.
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Old 03-27-24, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
i apologize, but you need to rephrase your question/questions because I have no idea what you're wanting me to answer. maybe someone else can rephrase it.
My bad, lost myself in my own rant! Why would pro teams deny themselves an opportunity to win to appease a sponsor?
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Old 03-27-24, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
So, to tie this back to the original topic, just how many teams have wheel and/or tire sponsors? Because everyone else could run whatever they prefer.

Pretty sure Visma does. But, they’re also on “semi-hooked” Reserve wheels.
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Old 03-27-24, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
My bad, lost myself in my own rant! Why would pro teams deny themselves an opportunity to win to appease a sponsor?
Let me think about some and come up with an answer.
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Old 03-27-24, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
So, to tie this back to the original topic, just how many teams have wheel and/or tire sponsors? Because everyone else could run whatever they prefer.
I think pretty much all of the pro teams have wheel and tyre sponsors. Most are using either Vittoria or Conti tyres, which are right at the top of the rolling resistance leaderboard. Wheels are more varied and I think only one World Tour team is on Zipp wheels this year. There are several on Shimano wheels and a few on wheel brands associated with the frame sponsor eg Roval and Reserve.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I think pretty much all of the pro teams have wheel and tyre sponsors. Most are using either Vittoria or Conti tyres, which are right at the top of the rolling resistance leaderboard. Wheels are more varied and I think only one World Tour team is on Zipp wheels this year. There are several on Shimano wheels and a few on wheel brands associated with the frame sponsor eg Roval and Reserve.
I had heard it was only a couple, but I can't remember where I heard it. It would be good to have actual data.
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Old 03-27-24, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I had heard it was only a couple, but I can't remember where I heard it. It would be good to have actual data.
There is a list here, but I’m not sure if they are tied to all these brands or simply just choosing to use them. I would imagine the bigger teams have more choice of equipment suppliers and are less likely to compromise on performance.

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/p...orldtour-bikes
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Old 03-27-24, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
My bad, lost myself in my own rant! Why would pro teams deny themselves an opportunity to win to appease a sponsor?
So I thought about it. The short answer is because the sponsor's stroke some BA checks which enable the team to operate.

I can't seem to get the long answer condensed down enough. It would come down to the team thinking the possible marginal gain not being enough to offset losing the sponsor. Sponsors are hard to come by these days.

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Old 03-27-24, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
So I thought about it. The short answer is because the sponsor's stroke some BA checks which enable the team to operate.

I can't seem to get the long answer condensed down enough. It would come down to the team not thinking the possible marginal gain not being enough to offset losing the sponsor. Sponsors are hard to come by these days.
For example, Ineos has Shimano as a wheel sponsor yet uses Meilenstein Obermeyer wheels on mountain stages to gain an advantage. Tire sponsors are another example where tires are regularly rebranded when the sponsor has an inferior product; this was especially relevant when tubulars were still in use. Yes, there are times when a team is forced to use an inferior product due to sponsorship commitments this is especially relevant on high-ticket items such as Time Trial bikes. But as a blanket statement regarding hookless or especially tubeless I don't believe that is the reason teams and riders are switching over.

We also have not addressed why many top-level amateurs and competitive riders are switching to tubeless and hookless.
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Old 03-28-24, 05:51 PM
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To be continued.......

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/...ims-and-tires/
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Old 03-29-24, 05:34 PM
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Summary: 25mm internal width hookless is no longer allowed to run 28mm tires, in accordance with existing ISO standards which Zipp had previously ignored.

Zipp has three tiers of wheels and only the budget tier is not 25mm internal width. Expect Zipp and other brands to redesign with narrower rims for the next model year.

Zipp is in a terrible situation. They're going to have to update their consumer tire width recommendation to align with the UCI ruling. If they do not, they're going to be sued by every person who crashes starting from today, accusing Zipp of knowingly ignoring ISO safety standards. Expect a class action lawsuit incoming from current wheel owners demanding free new wheels, accusing Zipp of selling them a product that knowingly ignored ISO safety standards.

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Old 03-29-24, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Summary: 25mm internal width hookless is no longer allowed to run 28mm tires, in accordance with existing ISO standards which Zipp had previously ignored.
Specialized says that its Roval Terra CL, which is hooked and has an internal width of 25 mm, can take 28 mm tires. Even that sounds a bit iffy to me.
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Old 03-30-24, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Summary: 25mm internal width hookless is no longer allowed to run 28mm tires, in accordance with existing ISO standards which Zipp had previously ignored.

Zipp has three tiers of wheels and only the budget tier is not 25mm internal width. Expect Zipp and other brands to redesign with narrower rims for the next model year.

Zipp is in a terrible situation. They're going to have to update their consumer tire width recommendation to align with the UCI ruling. If they do not, they're going to be sued by every person who crashes starting from today, accusing Zipp of knowingly ignoring ISO safety standards. Expect a class action lawsuit incoming from current wheel owners demanding free new wheels, accusing Zipp of selling them a product that knowingly ignored ISO safety standards.
I had a quick look on the Zipp website and they are still showing all major brand 28 mm tyres are compatible with their 25 mm hookless rims. I expect they will be forced to revise this compatibility chart to avoid future legal issues.

Also agree this probably spells the end for 25mm hookless road rims. At least while 28 mm race tyre width is still considered the optimum.
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Old 03-30-24, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Specialized says that its Roval Terra CL, which is hooked and has an internal width of 25 mm, can take 28 mm tires. Even that sounds a bit iffy to me.
Iffy in what way? Hooked is as safe as it gets for wired-on/clincher tires. Even back in the 1980's when a few companies were selling MTB rims with 19-mm internal width, the main concern was that tires over 2 inches in width, run at low pressure on single-track trails, might flop over sideways on high-speed turns, but they'd stay on the rim.
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Old 03-30-24, 05:57 AM
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Unless someone accurately tests and proves that there's something, magical about a 28mm tire over a 30mm, the simple answer is to change to 30. My latest Pirelli P-Zero ROAD TLR tires in 30mm aren't 2mm wider than the 28mm RACE version that I use on the front. I agree that all wheel brands should align their recommendations with ISO or ETRTO to avoid lawsuits, but if there are really tires being blown off at recommended pressures and size combinations, then there's likely to be lawsuits, particularly if there's enough money in it to be worthwhile for the ambulance chasing attorneys.

I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
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Old 03-30-24, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Unless someone accurately tests and proves that there's something, magical about a 28mm tire over a 30mm, the simple answer is to change to 30. My latest Pirelli P-Zero ROAD TLR tires in 30mm aren't 2mm wider than the 28mm RACE version that I use on the front. I agree that all wheel brands should align their recommendations with ISO or ETRTO to avoid lawsuits, but if there are really tires being blown off at recommended pressures and size combinations, then there's likely to be lawsuits, particularly if there's enough money in it to be worthwhile for the ambulance chasing attorneys.

I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
There are 2 issues for Zipp. The first is the risk of lawsuits from any crashes on 28 mm tyres (at least while they are still claiming compatibility with their rims). The second issue is a bunch of unhappy consumers who bought these 25 mm rims on the basis that they could run 28 mm tyres. Those people might already have a stock of 28 mm tyres that they are now suddenly told are incompatible. Plus they might not want to run wider tyres.

So it will be interesting to see how Zipp and the tyre manufacturers involved in signing off the compatibility of their tyres respond.
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Old 03-30-24, 06:42 AM
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Or they might find themselves in a situation where 28 mm tires will fit their frames, but 30 won't.
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Old 03-30-24, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS

I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
Interesting to note that Mavic until sometime recently used to have the below chart up, with 28mm on 25mm TSS rims.. however at a Max PSI of 59psi. So you indeed fell under the guideline. Mavic has since revised this chart though, and now shows 30mm as thinnest tire you can use on 25mm hookless (TSS). I think part of what still needs to be looked at, is the whole 73psi thing. There is no rationale physics model, is there, that says that this should/could be a universal maximum, regardless of tire or rim width. Hence why I cite the Mavic chart as it seems to at least have somewhat logical progressions. Makes me wonder if UCI is restating min tire width, not because a 28mm tire is too narrow, but that they don't want to have to change or have a variable PSI, and would rather stick with 73 as a number?

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Old 03-30-24, 08:03 AM
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So much confusion going on.

Current mavic tyre/pressure chart recommends a minimum 30mm tubeless tyre on a 25mm TSS rim, at no more than 60.5 psi (!), meaning the usual 72 psi max for hookless is out the window too.





https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf

Seems to me the industry is slightly panicking and scrambling to prevent injuries and lawsuits.
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Old 03-30-24, 08:29 AM
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A lot of previously unrecorded incidents might start coming to the surface. I hope it doesn't turn out like the Ford Explorer/Firestone debacle.
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Old 03-30-24, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So much confusion going on.

Current mavic tyre/pressure chart recommends a minimum 30mm tubeless tyre on a 25mm TSS rim, at no more than 60.5 psi (!), meaning the usual 72 psi max for hookless is out the window too.

https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf

Seems to me the industry is slightly panicking and scrambling to prevent injuries and lawsuits.
I'm aware, hence why I mentioned the chart had changed.. from only 2yrs ago -- the industry obviously still trying fo figure this all out. Of interest though, supposedly on my 19mm rims, I'm allowed to go to 80psi, (though 2yrs ago I would have only been allowed 78psi).

So is the 72/73 psi number bandied about all of the time -- something from ISO or from ETRTO, or somewhere else?
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