Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Addiction 2024.2

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction 2024.2

Old 05-27-24, 09:17 AM
  #3301  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,844

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Liked 12,709 Times in 6,518 Posts
Originally Posted by TMonk
The WT guys are doing 100-120 grams of carbs/hour . Pretty sure I'd puke if I tried to do that.
From what I've heard, Mere Mortals can train their guts to tolerate that. Personally, I don't like eating while moving, but then, I'm not racing.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 05-27-24, 09:20 AM
  #3302  
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,787
Liked 9,642 Times in 4,725 Posts
Originally Posted by TMonk
The WT guys are doing 100-120 grams of carbs/hour . Pretty sure I'd puke if I tried to do that.
I could work up to that when I was younger, I don't know about now. When I started doing long rides my stomach had to get used to eating for fueling. Got pretty good at it when touring and eating 6000 calories per day. Still have to be careful not to eat the wrong things when climbing, especially if it's hot.

I can have 1 Clif bar but if I eat 2 it upsets my stomach. Gels, too. I discovered the banana nut muffins years ago when we would go to Angeles Crest a lot. 500 calories and they don't upset my stomach at all.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 05-27-24, 09:35 AM
  #3303  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,437

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Liked 9,378 Times in 4,332 Posts
Originally Posted by TMonk
Trying to gradually increase the amount I'm eating on the bike for longer rides. Cause ya know, all the pros are doing it. What I've found so far, is that I'm less drained and depleted after a ride, which is a bonus. Apparently it helps with performance too, haven't noticed that but it certainly isn't a detriment there, that's for sure.

How does this look for a 145 lb athlete on a 3.5 hour spirited z2 ride? There are two bottles with carb/electrolyte mix as well on the TCR.

I'll find out shortly.

Let us know. I know the pros have really amped up their calories on stage races, not sure everyone’s stomach can tolerate that. I have not ever gone over about 80g/hour of carbs but might try extending that as tolerated.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 09:44 AM
  #3304  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,844

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Liked 12,709 Times in 6,518 Posts
I have noticed, since getting COVID last month, that my blood sugar seems to fall sooner on a ride than I expect. Normally, with one 8 oz Noosa yogurt, I can ride about 32 miles, to my usual stopping point, and not really feel hungry yet, but I eat a package of chews there, because I know I'll feel hungry soon. Then nothing else the rest of the ride.

The last month, by the time I get to about 25 miles, I'm feeling distinctly hungry. So, I've started having a gel at 25 miles, and then the chews at 32, and then often another gel at 50 miles.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 10:47 AM
  #3305  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,437

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Liked 9,378 Times in 4,332 Posts
I am quite lazy when it comes to cleaning my bike, and have what I call 3 levels of cleaning.

Level 1 is quick: sprinkle bike with hose, spray degreaser on chain/drivetrain, spray off, air dry and lube chain. This is done when bike gets dirty (ride in the rain).

Level 2 is medium: remove chain, hose down, apply degreaser, plus some degreaser/toothbrush action on brakes, chainrings, and cassette. Often done when time to replace chain anyway (see below) done every “few” months.

Level 3 is level 2 plus removal of cassette and maybe even brake calipers and chainrings with deeper cleaning. Done once/year (or every 2 years).

Anyway, I did a level 2 on both the Habanero and the Roubaix today.

Both chains measured out to somewhere a smidge more than 0.5% elongation (I hate the term stretch because it’s wear not stretch), more like 0.6%. Traditionally with 10s chains I would feel comfortable allowing chains to go 0.75%, but I read that narrower 11 (and presumably 12) speed chains should be replaced at 0.5%.

Anyone know if that’s really true, or just a lie forced on us by “Big Chain?”
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Likes For datlas:
Old 05-27-24, 10:50 AM
  #3306  
VFL For Life
 
Velo Vol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 51,994

Bikes: Velo Volmobile

Liked 1,997 Times in 1,406 Posts
__________________
Originally Posted by Velo Vol
People here don't get it.
Velo Vol is offline  
Likes For Velo Vol:
Old 05-27-24, 11:13 AM
  #3307  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,844

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Liked 12,709 Times in 6,518 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
I am quite lazy when it comes to cleaning my bike, and have what I call 3 levels of cleaning.

Level 1 is quick: sprinkle bike with hose, spray degreaser on chain/drivetrain, spray off, air dry and lube chain. This is done when bike gets dirty (ride in the rain).

Level 2 is medium: remove chain, hose down, apply degreaser, plus some degreaser/toothbrush action on brakes, chainrings, and cassette. Often done when time to replace chain anyway (see below) done every “few” months.

Level 3 is level 2 plus removal of cassette and maybe even brake calipers and chainrings with deeper cleaning. Done once/year (or every 2 years).

Anyway, I did a level 2 on both the Habanero and the Roubaix today.

Both chains measured out to somewhere a smidge more than 0.5% elongation (I hate the term stretch because it’s wear not stretch), more like 0.6%. Traditionally with 10s chains I would feel comfortable allowing chains to go 0.75%, but I read that narrower 11 (and presumably 12) speed chains should be replaced at 0.5%.

Anyone know if that’s really true, or just a lie forced on us by “Big Chain?”
You could always let it go longer and just replace your chain, cassette, and chainrings all at the same time. BIg Cassette and Big Chainring would love you for it.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 05-27-24, 11:14 AM
  #3308  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,844

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Liked 12,709 Times in 6,518 Posts
Originally Posted by Velo Vol
It's a wonder any of us can sleep at night.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 11:16 AM
  #3309  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,844

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Liked 12,709 Times in 6,518 Posts
Psychics in General. You'd think they'd know they'll just be deleted.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 05-27-24, 11:24 AM
  #3310  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 45,609

Bikes: everywhere

Liked 8,197 Times in 4,366 Posts
Originally Posted by Mojo31
The young stud dropped my ass like a hot light bulb. In the first mile. And while doing a track stand.

But, got to see what a 22 mph pace line feels like!

Thanks for coming over to play Mr. Pilot!
Mojo got Bam-a-lambed! harsh
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Likes For LesterOfPuppets:
Old 05-27-24, 11:30 AM
  #3311  
Senior Member
 
seedsbelize2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Yucatán. México
Posts: 6,782

Bikes: 2022 Gt Avalanche

Liked 2,037 Times in 1,282 Posts
Blood letting results are in hand. Low platelet count. And leucocytes and another ‘cyte. Dr. appt. tomorrow morning. I planned it like this. I did not, however, plan the low platelet count.
seedsbelize2 is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 11:46 AM
  #3312  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,437

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Liked 9,378 Times in 4,332 Posts
Originally Posted by seedsbelize2
Blood letting results are in hand. Low platelet count. And leucocytes and another ‘cyte. Dr. appt. tomorrow morning. I planned it like this. I did not, however, plan the low platelet count.
I am a closet hematologist so feel free to PM me, important to know details like MCV and differential to know if it’s a big deal or no big deal.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 11:51 AM
  #3313  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,409

Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway

Liked 5,371 Times in 2,293 Posts
Originally Posted by Mojo31
The young stud dropped my ass like a hot light bulb. In the first mile. And while doing a track stand.

But, got to see what a 22 mph pace line feels like!

Thanks for coming over to play Mr. Pilot!

If it wasn’t for the hills I think we could have kept a nice pace line. The hills Madone would fall way back, and I couldn’t seem to figure out what power to use to go up the hill to keep us together. Fun time, fun roads thanks for getting me off that trainer.



Just went for a second ride. Holy Crap it’s hot out here. I ran out of water super fast and didn’t think I would make it back to the hotel. Always fun to watch your heart rate continue to rise even as your power numbers drop dramatically.
bampilot06 is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 11:52 AM
  #3314  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,409

Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway

Liked 5,371 Times in 2,293 Posts
Oh and the emonda is not a creakmonda. BAD. I really hope it’s the seat, but it does it out of the saddle.
bampilot06 is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 11:54 AM
  #3315  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 45,609

Bikes: everywhere

Liked 8,197 Times in 4,366 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
It's a wonder any of us can sleep at night.
I'm 930 miles from the Fort Worth location, 1030 from New Braunfels. I feel fine
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 05-27-24, 12:36 PM
  #3316  
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,787
Liked 9,642 Times in 4,725 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
I am quite lazy when it comes to cleaning my bike, and have what I call 3 levels of cleaning.

Level 1 is quick: sprinkle bike with hose, spray degreaser on chain/drivetrain, spray off, air dry and lube chain. This is done when bike gets dirty (ride in the rain).

Level 2 is medium: remove chain, hose down, apply degreaser, plus some degreaser/toothbrush action on brakes, chainrings, and cassette. Often done when time to replace chain anyway (see below) done every “few” months.

Level 3 is level 2 plus removal of cassette and maybe even brake calipers and chainrings with deeper cleaning. Done once/year (or every 2 years).

Anyway, I did a level 2 on both the Habanero and the Roubaix today.

Both chains measured out to somewhere a smidge more than 0.5% elongation (I hate the term stretch because it’s wear not stretch), more like 0.6%. Traditionally with 10s chains I would feel comfortable allowing chains to go 0.75%, but I read that narrower 11 (and presumably 12) speed chains should be replaced at 0.5%.

Anyone know if that’s really true, or just a lie forced on us by “Big Chain?”
As you may have heard I am terrible with maintenance. I've never measured a chain, don't own the tool. When the chain starts looking bad I'll replace it and deal with the noise as it tries to wear into the old cogs. The last chain went about 12K miles and the cassette had to be at least 20K when I changed them. Also bought a new small ring and put on my best used big ring.

In the past when I tried to just replace the chain and it skipped under power I would buy the rest of the parts. I think I've only broken a chain once on a ride and that was because I did a bad job joining it since I didn't have the Campagnolo tool.

I rarely ride in the rain so I may have washed the bike twice in 12 years. Usually just wipe it with Pledge. When I was still working I rode in the wet more because I couldn't wait for the next dry day. In those days I usually wouldn't clean my bikes until the rains stopped.

As bad as I treat the bikes,, and my cars, it's rare that I have a mechanical. I did grenade a rear wheel 50 miles out when I was using Ksyriums. Took a cab back.
I've been super lucky and have never called for a pick up besides that, and the 3 times I had pedals snap off. Actually I got a ride from someone who was with me each of those times. Just had to wait for them to go get a car.

Had to call AAA once when the timing chain snapped in my old Blazer. It was so noisy people would ask what was wrong with my car. I kept driving it until it quit. Dumb.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 05-27-24, 12:53 PM
  #3317  
Super Modest
 
Trsnrtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 23,687

Bikes: Trek Emonda, Giant Propel, Colnago V3, Co-Motion Supremo, ICE VTX WC

Liked 4,933 Times in 2,232 Posts
Originally Posted by bampilot06
Oh and the emonda is not a creakmonda. BAD. I really hope it’s the seat, but it does it out of the saddle.
I got caught in a downpour a week or so ago and I had a bad leather or plastic type creak the next day. My wife said it was a shoe creak and I thought saddle. Regardless, it’s now gone, thankfully. Sometimes when the natural oil gets washed out of leather and synthetics, there’s really no way to replenish it.
__________________
Keep the chain tight!







Trsnrtr is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 12:53 PM
  #3318  
Not actually Tmonk
 
TMonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,702

Bikes: road, track, mtb

Liked 3,595 Times in 1,881 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
Let us know. I know the pros have really amped up their calories on stage races, not sure everyone’s stomach can tolerate that. I have not ever gone over about 80g/hour of carbs but might try extending that as tolerated.
I took my time getting out the door, so my riding window only permitted 3.25 hrs of pedaling time. Ate everything in the first photo except the nut bar, so yeah maybe 1,000 calories. Felt really good. Did some cat 6 racing in the middle when a triathlete and some excited tag-along roadies were running lights, dodging pedestrians etc. Was fun to let them go and then reel em' in and tighten the screws during the open sections .

Towards the end my legs were feeling a bit sore, but I thought that I would test the waters with a threshold level effort for 10 minutes after the 3 hr mark. Felt great and I had the watts and gas in the tank. This ride leaves me feeling good about SCNCA state champs on the 8th, might be my last "long" ride until then.

__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
TMonk is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 12:54 PM
  #3319  
Super Modest
 
Trsnrtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 23,687

Bikes: Trek Emonda, Giant Propel, Colnago V3, Co-Motion Supremo, ICE VTX WC

Liked 4,933 Times in 2,232 Posts
For the Trek guys, my new to me RSL bars are like sex or what I remember of it.
__________________
Keep the chain tight!







Trsnrtr is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 12:57 PM
  #3320  
Not actually Tmonk
 
TMonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,702

Bikes: road, track, mtb

Liked 3,595 Times in 1,881 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
I am quite lazy when it comes to cleaning my bike, and have what I call 3 levels of cleaning.

Level 1 is quick: sprinkle bike with hose, spray degreaser on chain/drivetrain, spray off, air dry and lube chain. This is done when bike gets dirty (ride in the rain).

Level 2 is medium: remove chain, hose down, apply degreaser, plus some degreaser/toothbrush action on brakes, chainrings, and cassette. Often done when time to replace chain anyway (see below) done every “few” months.

Level 3 is level 2 plus removal of cassette and maybe even brake calipers and chainrings with deeper cleaning. Done once/year (or every 2 years).

Anyway, I did a level 2 on both the Habanero and the Roubaix today.

Both chains measured out to somewhere a smidge more than 0.5% elongation (I hate the term stretch because it’s wear not stretch), more like 0.6%. Traditionally with 10s chains I would feel comfortable allowing chains to go 0.75%, but I read that narrower 11 (and presumably 12) speed chains should be replaced at 0.5%.

Anyone know if that’s really true, or just a lie forced on us by “Big Chain?”
For level 1 - I just do a quick hose spray and a wipe. I do molten wax for my chains so I never feel the need to clean the drive train between level 2's.

Level 2 - Mine looks quite like yours and about the same frequency too. I use a big auto sponge for most of it, and then a secondary. more concentrated degreaser solution for the drivetrain. I use a paint brush to apply. I try to do multiple bikes at a time to get more value out of the degreaser.

Level 3 - I simply don't do this.
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
TMonk is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 01:09 PM
  #3321  
Senior Member
 
seedsbelize2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Yucatán. México
Posts: 6,782

Bikes: 2022 Gt Avalanche

Liked 2,037 Times in 1,282 Posts
Originally Posted by big john;[url=tel:23250854
23250854[/url]]As you may have heard I am terrible with maintenance. I've never measured a chain, don't own the tool. When the chain starts looking bad I'll replace it and deal with the noise as it tries to wear into the old cogs. The last chain went about 12K miles and the cassette had to be at least 20K when I changed them. Also bought a new small ring and put on my best used big ring.

In the past when I tried to just replace the chain and it skipped under power I would buy the rest of the parts. I think I've only broken a chain once on a ride and that was because I did a bad job joining it since I didn't have the Campagnolo tool.

I rarely ride in the rain so I may have washed the bike twice in 12 years. Usually just wipe it with Pledge. When I was still working I rode in the wet more because I couldn't wait for the next dry day. In those days I usually wouldn't clean my bikes until the rains stopped.

As bad as I treat the bikes,, and my cars, it's rare that I have a mechanical. I did grenade a rear wheel 50 miles out when I was using Ksyriums. Took a cab back.
I've been super lucky and have never called for a pick up besides that, and the 3 times I had pedals snap off. Actually I got a ride from someone who was with me each of those times. Just had to wait for them to go get a car.

Had to call AAA once when the timing chain snapped in my old Blazer. It was so noisy people would ask what was wrong with my car. I kept driving it until it quit. Dumb.
This pretty much matches my bike maintenance program. I try to do better with cars.
seedsbelize2 is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 01:25 PM
  #3322  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,437

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Liked 9,378 Times in 4,332 Posts
Oh, I forgot my level 4, that’s about once/decade. Remove everything from frame. Wash frame thoroughly. Replace BB and drivetrain (ideally with new parts). I did that for the Habanero 2 years ago, which was at about 75k miles.

I am not sure I will need to do that ever again.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Likes For datlas:
Old 05-27-24, 01:33 PM
  #3323  
Not actually Tmonk
 
TMonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,702

Bikes: road, track, mtb

Liked 3,595 Times in 1,881 Posts
OK I think I'm an actual deadhead now. Got most of their songbook in my brain, can probably accompany things on the piano/keys with some sheet music off the cuff. It really helps me to know the melody when playing something new. Man my guitar player must be so proud (it's his influence that's to blame for this).

Had the "Candyman" opening guitar lick in my head for much of my ride today (first ~30s of the video below). Not a bad vibe at all while I'm motoring up and down the coast.

__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
TMonk is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 01:37 PM
  #3324  
Senior Member
 
seedsbelize2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Yucatán. México
Posts: 6,782

Bikes: 2022 Gt Avalanche

Liked 2,037 Times in 1,282 Posts
Originally Posted by bampilot06
Oh and the emonda is not a creakmonda. BAD. I really hope it’s the seat, but it does it out of the saddle.
when you find it let me know
I still hope it’s the seat post too, even though I just greased it. I’ll try greasing the entire length. And the attachment points for the seat itself
Chatgpt told me it could be the chain as it enters the chainring. I hadn’t heard of that before.

Last edited by seedsbelize2; 05-27-24 at 01:41 PM.
seedsbelize2 is offline  
Old 05-27-24, 01:43 PM
  #3325  
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,787
Liked 9,642 Times in 4,725 Posts
Originally Posted by seedsbelize2
This pretty much matches my bike maintenance program. I try to do better with cars.
I used to be borderline obsessive with my cars. Wash and wax, detail the engine, etc. Like they say, a good way to ruin a hobby is to make it your profession.
Years of working on cars gave me a disdain for them, and machines in general. I should get over it.
big john is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.