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Wooden rims?

Old 05-16-24, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I don’t think about them at all.
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Old 05-16-24, 10:32 PM
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On the other hand, on a gravel bike, if you get stranded over night, you can always build a nice fire. Not so with carbon - unless you have a death wish.
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Old 05-17-24, 12:47 AM
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It's big
It's heavy
It's wood.

Why do you think Blammo went out of business?
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Old 05-17-24, 06:57 AM
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Old 05-17-24, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by znomit
It's big
It's heavy
It's wood.

Why do you think Blammo went out of business?
It's better than bad, it's good!
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Old 05-17-24, 08:54 AM
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This presentation about wood rims reminds me of what the great Mark Rippetoe said about homemade wood power racks. Rippetoe is a strength training coach and the power rack is an excellent tool for performing barbell squats. In that regard he stated (paraphrasing): "the reason we don't use wood racks is the same reason we don't build cars with wood." I think that thought is applicable to the idea of wood rims.
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Old 05-17-24, 08:58 AM
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On the other hand, if you are crossing a raging river and get swept away with your bike, the air the tires and the wood rims would be a life saver (or light saber). <-thinking of Darth Vader above.
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Old 05-17-24, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
I built a cart pre-loaded with 90km of concrete, for a total of 130kg, I mounted a classic steel+tugsten fork (the fork is/was 1.1kg, not among the lightest, it is among the cheapest, taken a super economical entry level bicycle), mounted a guinea pig wheel with a tire inflated to 7 bar, I blocked the descent of a road, I went to the top, I let the cart move with remote-controlled steering, and I made it crash with a final speed of about 40km/h a block of cement mortar.
Just to summarize:

You crashed aluminum wheels into a concrete block at 40 kph (25mph) while loaded with 130 kg (286 lbs.) of weight. From the (disastrous) results, you've concluded that it's "totally idiotic" to use Campy wheels for anything other than track riding, and you're looking into wooden wheels as an alternative.

Okaaaaaay ...
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Old 05-17-24, 10:08 AM
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I'm sorry, but I've come to th je conclusion that tomato coupe may be the greatest human to ever breathe....
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Old 05-17-24, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Just to summarize:
You crashed aluminum wheels into a concrete block at 40 kph (25mph) while loaded with 130 kg (286 lbs.) of weight. From the (disastrous) results, you've concluded that it's "totally idiotic" to use Campy wheels for anything other than track riding, and you're looking into wooden wheels as an alternative.
Okaaaaaay ..
I conducted experiments to understand the difference between
  • Campagnolo's marketing, which pushes towards "fluid dynamics wheels" { Zonda, Shamal, Vento, Bora, ... }
  • How things really are in terms of, not performance, because there is no doubt that fluid dynamics wheels create less turbulence, so they save a few Watts, but from the point of view of road safety.
then I created a dynamic parametric model, which includes the rim profile, the number of spokes, the spoke profile (mainly based on { Sapim Laser, Sapim Race, ... }) and the crossed spoke pattern { 0, 3 , 4 }, which I can use to even calculate an estimate of the deformation, via FEM, and I can parameterize everything by weight and impact speed, therefore making estimates on things that I could not verify experimentally without spending too much money, or without creating dangerous situations, such as crashing the cart at 60km/h.

Then I found myself faced with very strong marketing for wooden rims, thanks to the fact that they were used in various sporting events in the '20s, '30s and '40s. There are many photos and testimonials, and four companies in Italy that "make" wooden rims, on traditional 40s skills, just with modern processes.

Interesting, but must be verified. Even because modern marketing insists that, from a medical point of view, they place less stress on the wrist, elbow, shoulder and spinal joints.
  • pure ********? or Is there any truth in all this?
  • and how does a wooden rim really behave in the event of an impact?
  • What wood are we talking about? Not all woods are the same
Mumble, these need to be verified, I don't believe the people who write on forums, nor the marketing chatter.
-

I was hoping someone here would tell me something about them after having tried them.

Meanwhile, found a bicycle made in 1936. Still in working state, even if equipped with wooden rims.




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Old 05-17-24, 10:29 AM
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And by the way, there are also bicycle wooden frames..
And famous people who have purchased them and use them privately.

An example is Giovanotti. An Italian singer.
I know, he spent more than 8K euro on a custom bike built with a wooden frame.
I think he uses it for "tourism cycle" purposes, and that he also decorates his living room with it.

I would like to know more about wooden frames, for now my interest is only on rims, of any material
  • Aluminium, various alloys, some are "industrial secret", e.g. H+Son ...
  • Steel (if I will ever find one... )
  • Carbon
  • Wood
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Old 05-17-24, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
And by the way, there are also bicycle wooden frames..
And famous people who have purchased them and use them privately.

An example is Giovanotti. An Italian singer.

I would like to know more about wooden frames, for now my interest is only on rims, of any material
  • Aluminium, various alloys, some are "industrial secret", e.g. H+Son ...
  • Steel (if I will ever find one... )
  • Carbon
  • Wood
Very few wood bikes have ever been produced. Bamboo bikes, on the other hand, are somewhat popular, at least partly because they can be DIY'ed pretty easily.

That said, you can add magnesium to the list. There are a few passionate advocates here. Also, titanium.

And various combinations and permutations. Such as the Slingshot bikes, which used a Fiberglas hinge in the top tube near the seat tube and a tensioned steel cable in place of a down tube. Reviews in bike magazines said the Slingshot bike looked ridiculous but accelerated like a rocket.


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Old 05-17-24, 10:43 AM
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This thread is really delivering ...
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Old 05-17-24, 10:45 AM
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I have seriously considered building up a set of Italian wood 700c rims for a disc brake build. Admittedly some of my reasoning is that it would be for the coolness factor if it could be done in a way that the wheels would hold together under disc brake forces. I would imagine traditional 36 hole drilling laced up 2 or 3 cross would give the best chance of holding together under a #195 pound person. I would talk to my go to LBS wheel builder to see what he thinks re standard butted DT Swiss or if the lighter gauge “Revolution” DT Swiss spoke would be all right thanks to the 36 spokes, I kind of think it would work and the wheel would be every day fair weather reliable, not necessarily just for a show bike…
I think it would be interesting to find out if anyone ran a wooden rim for tubeless, hookless implementation. I could see where such a wheel would be super plush riding if you could assure that it would run true. If the hookless, tubeless idea is not workable, then the tubular version I would think would work great as well. Since the wheel would be with disc hubs there would be no worries re: sidewall issues were it to be built for rim brake. As far as which woods might hold up the best, I guess you could inquire with the wooden rim maker in Italy (Ghisallo?) to get their opinion and to check availability. Ash or white oak would be choices I would think would be good or a sandwich of different woods all laminated up might be cool as well.
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Old 05-17-24, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
This thread is really delivering ...
It’s on FIRE!
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Old 05-17-24, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
I mean no. Wood is heavier with much less tensile strength. The only wood that would remotely work would be composite wood but there would need to be so much resin to bind the wood together it wouldn't even really be "wood" and it would be insanely heavy
Surprisingly, wood's strength-to-weight ratio is not too shabby. If the goal is minimizing weight, it's not the dumbest choice.

Material : Specific Strength (kN-m/kg)
4130 stee. : 71-85
6061-T6 Al : 115
7075-T6 Al : 204
Pine wood : 223
Titanium alloy : 260
Balsa wood : 521
Carbon composite : 785
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Old 05-17-24, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ArgoMan
I'm sorry, but I've come to th je conclusion that tomato coupe may be the greatest human to ever breathe....
From a purely scientific point of view, I could not conclude anything without first having verified the large numbers hypothesis.
If I had the time and the money, or if Campagnolo/Mavic/etc would pay me to do it many more experiments ...
(They certainly do them internally, just as Tesla does internal car crash tests and doesn't publish any data)

I do what I can only do, and I have drawn conclusions that I do not publish for this very reason: they have a major methodological flaw at their base.
It's for my personal use, and it's better than nothing. It just gives me the idea of a trend, which, in turn, gives me an idea about the type of wheels I really want to use.

What I have learned is to never underestimate anything, and always verify everything in person.
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Old 05-17-24, 10:51 AM
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Gonna need waders pretty soon.
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Old 05-17-24, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
From a purely scientific point of view, I could not conclude anything without first having verified the large numbers hypothesis.
We're being played. Bravo.
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Old 05-17-24, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Surprisingly, wood's strength-to-weight ratio is not too shabby. If the goal is minimizing weight, it's not the dumbest choice.

Material : Specific Strength (kN-m/kg)
4130 stee. : 71-85
6061-T6 Al : 115
7075-T6 Al : 204
Pine wood : 223
Titanium alloy : 260
Balsa wood : 521
Carbon composite : 785
Strength is one thing but the issue is weight. Balsa is incredibly light for wood but also insanely fragile and while pine is harder it is quite heavy, that is why they use pine and maple for baseball bats.
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Old 05-17-24, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61
I have seriously considered building up a set of Italian wood 700c rims for a disc brake build. Admittedly some of my reasoning is that it would be for the coolness factor if it could be done in a way that the wheels would hold together under disc brake forces. I would imagine traditional 36 hole drilling laced up 2 or 3 cross would give the best chance of holding together under a #195 pound person. I would talk to my go to LBS wheel builder to see what he thinks re standard butted DT Swiss or if the lighter gauge “Revolution” DT Swiss spoke would be all right thanks to the 36 spokes, I kind of think it would work and the wheel would be every day fair weather reliable, not necessarily just for a show bike…
I think it would be interesting to find out if anyone ran a wooden rim for tubeless, hookless implementation. I could see where such a wheel would be super plush riding if you could assure that it would run true. If the hookless, tubeless idea is not workable, then the tubular version I would think would work great as well. Since the wheel would be with disc hubs there would be no worries re: sidewall issues were it to be built for rim brake. As far as which woods might hold up the best, I guess you could inquire with the wooden rim maker in Italy (Ghisallo?) to get their opinion and to check availability. Ash or white oak would be choices I would think would be good or a sandwich of different woods all laminated up might be cool as well.
Going to invest 500 euro in a wodden Sanremo 36H Hookless wheel set ( rim + 36H Sapim Race spokes + Campy 1994 C-Record hubs ) made by CBita (have a look, with the help of Google Translate).
They need a nipple kit, which is already included with the purchase: 160 euros for a pair of rims

CBita also has cork pads, to be mounted on Campagnolo Calipher rim-brakes ( I will install only the front brake, as usual ), and wooden pedals with aluminum cores (ball or sealed bearings), derived from the Japanese MKS pedals.
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Old 05-17-24, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
I mean no. Wood is heavier with much less tensile strength. The only wood that would remotely work would be composite wood but there would need to be so much resin to bind the wood together it wouldn't even really be "wood" and it would be insanely heavy
Originally Posted by Jrasero
Strength is one thing but the issue is weight. Balsa is incredibly light for wood but also insanely fragile and while pine is harder it is quite heavy, that is why they use pine and maple for baseball bats.
"There are several rims on offer, and weight per single rim varies between 350–450 grams each"
And apparently beech wood is where the sweet spot between weight and strength meet for this application.

https://roadbikeaction.com/rolling-on-wheels-of-wood
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Old 05-17-24, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
Strength is one thing but the issue is weight. Balsa is incredibly light for wood but also insanely fragile and while pine is harder it is quite heavy, that is why they use pine and maple for baseball bats.
Compared to balsa, pine is more than twice as dense. But aluminum is 8 times as dense as pine, and steel is 22 times as dense as pine.

Pound for pound, pine is about 10% stronger than aluminum, and 160% stronger than 4130 steel.
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Old 05-17-24, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
I mean no. Wood is heavier with much less tensile strength. The only wood that would remotely work would be composite wood but there would need to be so much resin to bind the wood together it wouldn't even really be "wood" and it would be insanely heavy
Says someone who knows little about high quality wood/epoxy design and construction. Light, strong and long lasting sailboat hulls, masts, etc. have been made out of wood and raced for speed records and around the world. The skilled makers of wood sailboat spars would have little trouble making strong, light wood rims. Little excess resin and that would get squeezed out in the laminating process.
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Old 05-17-24, 11:46 AM
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In WWII they made perfectly good pt boats and mosquito bombers out of wood as well.
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