Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Steel Bikes with Carbon would you want this bike?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Steel Bikes with Carbon would you want this bike?

Old 09-09-05, 10:24 PM
  #1  
dragonflybikes
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Steel Bikes with Carbon would you want this bike?

I am looking at producing and selling some road bike frames. I wanted to know what the general concensus is on a road bike frame that is made of carbon and steel. The top tube, seat tube and seat stays will be carbon and the rest Reynolds 853. Where the steel meets with the carbon seat and top tube there would be some nice artistic cutting of the steel and not just a straight line.

Since Aluminun bikes with Carbon stays and full Carbon bikes are dominating these days I basically would like to know if there is a market out there for a steel/carbon bike. This is assuming that it comes in at a respectable weight.

Please any feedback would be helpfull.

Here is a pic of what it will basically look like

dragonflybikes is offline  
Old 09-09-05, 10:27 PM
  #2  
garysol1 
Senior Member
 
garysol1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: K-Zoo Michigan
Posts: 10,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I would have to ask why???? Aluminum benefits from Carbon to help soften the ride but steel already has the nice ride. What is the benefit of the Carbon tubes?
__________________
Trek Emonda SLR Speedy
Trek Stache 9.7 Its a hoot!
Specialized AWOL Mile Muncher
Specialized Fatboy Trail Miles of Smiles
Kona Jake The Snake Cross
garysol1 is offline  
Old 09-09-05, 10:27 PM
  #3  
ShinyBaldy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No - then again, I'm not particularly representative of the typical consumer. I don't like mixed material frames, bonds add useless weight and additional point of possible failure.

Give me all steel or all composite. I won't take both.
ShinyBaldy is offline  
Old 09-09-05, 10:30 PM
  #4  
timwat
Senior Member
 
timwat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 546

Bikes: Giant TCR CF, Raleigh Fixie, Bridgestone Radac, Specialized Rockhopper

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Is this not similar to what Lemond does on their Versailles, and what Jamis does on the new Satellite? It appears lugging the CF at the seatpost, or is that just graphics?

More important than frame material, do you have geometry specs published?
timwat is offline  
Old 09-09-05, 10:41 PM
  #5  
Serpico
Banned.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
853 steel is NICE

haven't ridden carbon stuff (except fork) so not sure about that part

serotta ottrott is cool, and I like the six13 and Lemond 'spine' bikes (haven't ridden any of them though )

good luck

Last edited by Serpico; 09-10-05 at 01:30 AM.
Serpico is offline  
Old 09-09-05, 10:49 PM
  #6  
FarHorizon
Senior Curmudgeon
 
FarHorizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 3,856

Bikes: Varies by day

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
If you'll do custom geometry - I'm INTERESTED!
FarHorizon is offline  
Old 09-09-05, 11:02 PM
  #7  
bkrownd
kipuka explorer
 
bkrownd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hilo Town, East Hawai'i
Posts: 3,297

Bikes: 1994 Trek 820, 2004 Fuji Absolute, 2005 Jamis Nova, 1977 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would look at this frame and think to myself, "that would be a sweet frame if it was all straight 853 tubing." If you're going to mix materials in a disposable frame like this, why not just use aluminum? You've eliminated the reasons for using steel at all as far as I can tell.
__________________
--
-=- '05 Jamis Nova -=- '04 Fuji Absolute -=- '94 Trek 820 -=- '77 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36 -=-
Friends don't let friends use brifters.
bkrownd is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 12:49 AM
  #8  
gmason
Senior Member (Retired)
 
gmason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Great North Woods
Posts: 2,671

Bikes: Vittorio, Centaur triple; Casati Laser Piu, Chorus Triple.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dragonflybikes
The top tube, seat tube and seat stays will be carbon and the rest Reynolds 853.
Aren't there already several frames out there with various combinations of what you are considering? As I am not in the market, I don't tend to remember them all, but I have seen a raft of frames with some carbon, some Al, some Ti, etc. mixed in various ways. A few use metal head tubes and lugs combined, etc.

I have wondered if these are, in the main, marketing ideas rather than tech ones.

In any case, good luck!
gmason is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 01:29 AM
  #9  
tinrobot
Spit out the back
 
tinrobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Silverlake, CA
Posts: 1,116
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
I have a steel/carbon bike. I love it. I think yours will find a market.
tinrobot is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 05:43 AM
  #10  
Wurm
acciaio is real
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth (for now)
Posts: 1,109

Bikes: Yes, bicycle(s) I own!

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sure, it would be a good way to go IMO. I would not mind having this frame for example (the Columbus-tubed Orbea Spirit), but at my weight range (193-205 lbs.) probably Columbus Life or Zona is a better choice.

Last edited by Wurm; 09-10-05 at 05:30 PM.
Wurm is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 05:47 AM
  #11  
Wurm
acciaio is real
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth (for now)
Posts: 1,109

Bikes: Yes, bicycle(s) I own!

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bkrownd
I would look at this frame and think to myself, "that would be a sweet frame if it was all straight 853 tubing." If you're going to mix materials in a disposable frame like this, why not just use aluminum? You've eliminated the reasons for using steel at all as far as I can tell.
Why is a steel frame "disposable" any more than any other material? The reason for a CF seat stay is one of vibe/shock dampening. On my current rig, an '03 Raleigh Professional (all Zona tubing), it can be a bit harsh sometimes on the back end, so I would welcome a little CF there if it were done right.
Wurm is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 06:03 AM
  #12  
Grasschopper
He drop me
 
Grasschopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Central PA
Posts: 11,664

Bikes: '03 Marin Mill Valley, '02 Eddy Merckx Corsa 0.1, '12 Giant Defy Advance, '20 Giant Revolt 1, '20 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 1, some random 6KU fixie

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 9 Posts
Like others have said there are other companies doing it so there must be a market for it. Jamis Eclipse is just like this and the Lemond CF/Steel bikes are similar (but no steel at the seat tube, seat stay, top tube joint). If my local dealer had an Eclipse I would have test ridden it last week but when they said it would be full retail to get one in (even an 05 closeout) I chuckled and left. Fuji dealer a block up offered me a Professional Euro which is full CF and has Chorus rather than Centaur (of the Jamis) for less than the retail of the Jamis so.....
__________________
The views expressed by this poster do not reflect the views of BikeForums.net.
Grasschopper is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 07:19 AM
  #13  
biker7
Senior Member
 
biker7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dragonflybikes
I am looking at producing and selling some road bike frames. I wanted to know what the general concensus is on a road bike frame that is made of carbon and steel. The top tube, seat tube and seat stays will be carbon and the rest Reynolds 853. Where the steel meets with the carbon seat and top tube there would be some nice artistic cutting of the steel and not just a straight line.

Since Aluminun bikes with Carbon stays and full Carbon bikes are dominating these days I basically would like to know if there is a market out there for a steel/carbon bike. This is assuming that it comes in at a respectable weight.

Please any feedback would be helpfull.

Here is a pic of what it will basically look like

First let me give credit for your ambitious undertaking...a considerable investment of time, resources and enterprising spirit so you have my respect to even consider it. Second...you have a distinct uphill climb with all the name brand competition out there as many try to cultivate a niche based upon your informal survey/potential market. Your effort to set yourself apart of course is a bit different departure...a CF top tube...which of course begs the question with amount of CF content...particularly married to heavy albeit appreciated steel...what would be the incentive for a cyclist to purchase such a hybrid and just not buy a complete CF frame with monocoque construction. Building if not designing a monocoque CF frame which is arguably best from an overall performance standpoint is daunting in terms of resources involved and why it exceeds virtually all small frame builders capability both from a CAD design and manufacturing aspect. Building a frame in components...combining steel and CF is much easier to fabricate and may have some aesthetic value...your picture looks nice....but then the performance doesn't compare to monocoque CF so you will need to come in at a lower price point. Just about every permutation of frame components and materials exist out there and from known manufacturers with back up warranty so an experienced cyclist will need an incentive to purchase a frame such as you describe without you having a solid reputation to draw upon...be it a price point advantage and/or custom geometry or both for you to get started. You maybe the next premier frame builder but getting started is so difficult in today's climate of competition. As to a steel and carbon rear triangle combination....its been done by many if not most leading manufacturers including Bianchi. Some would maintain it is mostly marketing if not a fractional weight and vibration dampening improvement...sometimes at the expense of whippiness if not done correctly. As to benefit...a little known fact is it can be cheaper for a frame manufacturer to graft a CF rear end on a frame. Why? Manufacturing cost...the number of welds and geometry involved in creating a solid steel rear triangle is the most intricate and demanding aspect of frame design and this construction can be duplicated in CF sometimes for less...not material cost but labor intensity. As to Reynolds 853...excellent mid to higher end steel with a reasonable cost point but not a lot of marketing cache compared to other more exotic steels out there. Again...it will come down to what you offer in terms of geometry and material variety relative to price point based upon an unproven reputation. High volume production can offset low production individualized custom frames but you will lose this market segment which may prove to be your biggest ally when getting started. A formidable task to start out as a frame maker and survive today and I wish you the best.
George

Last edited by biker7; 09-10-05 at 12:36 PM.
biker7 is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 07:46 AM
  #14  
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lemond for one beat you to it. The market is CF.You are trying to beat a very dead horse.
sydney is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 08:09 AM
  #15  
biker7
Senior Member
 
biker7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by sydney
Lemond for one beat you to it. The market is CF.You are trying to beat a very dead horse.
Indelicately put but true ...and combining steel and CF are a contrast in properties of sorts and why it is mostly done in Al and CF to keep cost down and offer a weight improvement over steel. Aside from the tremendous complexity of designing a monocoque CF frame...the question of number of frame sizes comes up a lot...or the resulting reduction in frame sizes available...S,M,L,XL etc. The answer is quite simple. Monocoque tooling (mold) costs are astronomic. You need a set of molds (multiple cavities) for each frame size....fewer frame sizes equals fewer molds. Building frames in pieces is much cheaper because you can mix and match but of course can not parallel the performance capability of monocoque CF.
George
biker7 is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 09:43 AM
  #16  
ViperZ
Baby it's cold outside...
 
ViperZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 7,310

Bikes: Trek 5000, Rocky Mountain Wedge, GT Karakoram K2, Litespeed Tuscany

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think the Steel Carbon market would be a smaller Niche, however one that could be filld with good pricing and good quality.

I would love to have a Master Carbon which is partly for it's classic looks, and because I have always wanted a Colnago. The Carbon arguably makes it more this Century being stiffer and lighter. I would take an all steel one as well, but they are no longer made.




Best of luck with your venture. I like your planned design
__________________
-Trek 5000* -Project Litespeed* -The Italian Job* -Rocky Wedge* -The Canadian Connection*
ViperZ is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 10:13 AM
  #17  
krazyderek
Ca-na-da?
 
krazyderek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dartmouth, NS, Canada
Posts: 2,024

Bikes: raleigh grand prix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
marinoni makes a steel carbon combo frame

actually they make a couple, i think thisis the highest end one though..
krazyderek is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 10:35 AM
  #18  
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ViperZ

I would love to have a Master Carbon which is partly for it's classic looks, and because I have always wanted a Colnago. The Carbon arguably makes it more this Century being stiffer and lighter. I would take an all steel one as well, but they are no longer made.
Plenty on ebay as well as the Tecnos with same lugs but different proprietary tubeset for lighter riders.
sydney is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 10:38 AM
  #19  
ViperZ
Baby it's cold outside...
 
ViperZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 7,310

Bikes: Trek 5000, Rocky Mountain Wedge, GT Karakoram K2, Litespeed Tuscany

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by sydney
Plenty on ebay as well as the Tecnos with same lugs but different proprietary tubeset for lighter riders.
Right, It is the Master SLX Steel (late 80's) I lust after I watch ebay all the time and there is one in my size range that looks to be decent. Just not willing to pull the trigger yet
__________________
-Trek 5000* -Project Litespeed* -The Italian Job* -Rocky Wedge* -The Canadian Connection*
ViperZ is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 10:48 AM
  #20  
SHOOP
Skill MTB Ryda
 
SHOOP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 151

Bikes: Schwinn Mesa

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
will the body be lighter
SHOOP is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 11:07 AM
  #21  
fmw
Hoosier Pedaler
 
fmw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I try to look at things from a marketing perspective. I haven't figured out how you want to market this material hybrid. Mixing materials just for the sake of a mix isn't destined to make a viable product. Give some thought to the why. What would motivate a bicycle manufacturer or a bicycle enthusiast to buy this mix instead of another? To put marketing into the simplest terms it is the process of 1. finding what people want, 2. getting it for them and 3. telling them you have it. I'm not sure you've even progressed to step 1.
__________________
Fred
A tour of my stable of bicycles
fmw is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 12:48 PM
  #22  
biker7
Senior Member
 
biker7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fmw
I try to look at things from a marketing perspective. I haven't figured out how you want to market this material hybrid. Mixing materials just for the sake of a mix isn't destined to make a viable product. Give some thought to the why. What would motivate a bicycle manufacturer or a bicycle enthusiast to buy this mix instead of another? To put marketing into the simplest terms it is the process of 1. finding what people want, 2. getting it for them and 3. telling them you have it. I'm not sure you've even progressed to step 1.
I'll help. Marketing can be cultivated because people operate at different levels of perception. Those relunctant to embrace all steel or all carbon fiber but are quick to acknowledge respective merits of each may be perfect for the synthesis of both. Further...there is always the esoteric...something a bit different...these frames could have very high aesthetic quality with a weight advantage over full steel for less cost than a full CF frame. There is a marketing angle to this type of frame...depends on the execution.
George

Last edited by biker7; 09-10-05 at 01:01 PM.
biker7 is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 05:23 PM
  #23  
Wurm
acciaio is real
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth (for now)
Posts: 1,109

Bikes: Yes, bicycle(s) I own!

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by biker7
Building frames in pieces is much cheaper because you can mix and match but of course can not parallel the performance capability of monocoque CF.
George
What this "performance" difference that's so much greater on a monocoque CF frame than a steel frame that you keep refering to? Lighter weight? About 1 lb. or so. There is some vibration damping to be had with CF over steel, but on some CF frames I've ridden, vibration is really no better than what a good steel frame will do.

Otherwise, not much performance gain IMO.

The marketers must have gotten to you good.
Wurm is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 05:29 PM
  #24  
Wurm
acciaio is real
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth (for now)
Posts: 1,109

Bikes: Yes, bicycle(s) I own!

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MERTON
second, steel riders don't want no damn carbon on their bikes. if they wanted something super light they'ed go all carbon. steel riders want the ride of steel.
Disagree. I know some steel riders (like myself) that wouldn't mind a CF rear in some form or another if it were to improve the ride somewhat, as I said above.
Wurm is offline  
Old 09-10-05, 05:36 PM
  #25  
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wurm
Disagree. I know some steel riders (like myself) that wouldn't mind a CF rear in some form or another if it were to improve the ride somewhat, as I said above.
Marketing guys got to you too ....Eh?
sydney is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.