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"Bringing Down Lance"

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"Bringing Down Lance"

Old 11-16-05, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Doid23
Holy tangents Batman!

And that is connected to allegations of Lance doping how? So, following your (at best) cloudy line of reasoning, then we're pretty much allowed to speculate on anything we want now, correct?
Hilarious. And now Doid we better understand how guys like pedex believe that Lance doped. Because they are dopes.
George
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Old 11-16-05, 10:12 AM
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1. If it was banned in 1999, they should have tested for it, and made the accusation then.
There was no urinary EPO test in 1999.


You're also completely ignoring the fact that these tests aren't flawless, and the samples were old, and may have been, and probably were, tainted, if not downright tampered with!
Tampering is possible. False positives less so. I think the most plausable explanation is that, like everyone else in 1999, Armstrong was using EPO because he knew he couldn't be caught.


2. On his first tour, he didn't expect to win! Placing in the top 100 instead would still have been a major victory, without risking his life.
Firstly, it wasn't his first tour. Secondly he'd already won the Tour de Luxembourg in 1998 and placed 4th in the Veulta that year. He was an underdog, but people expected a top ten from him. You don't actually know any of this, do you?


3. I actually know many people who had had terminal deseases who have come close to dying, and a number who did die. Not a single one has ever cared any longer about their jobs, business, money or anything other than the people they love and staying alive.
Me too - my experiences are different. I think a single-minded, commited, agressive sportsman will remain so (maybe even more) after overcoming a life-threatening disease. He'd already been given EPO while undergoing therapy for cancer, and the drug isn't really that dangerous (especially when you are under a good doctor, as he always has been). EPO generally kills the guys who are self-administrating and who don't have as good medical care.


If you wish to "trivialize" this, go ahead. Please remember, "what goes around, comes around".
I'm not going to 'remember' it, because it isn't true.

Where's Smoothie when you need him?

Last edited by EURO; 11-16-05 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 11-16-05, 10:18 AM
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Except the bone heads who 'control' doping in European pro cycling don't even have a test that a convincing plurality of medical/biological experts can all agree upon for undisputed accuracy in testing for EPO or blood doping. So the best they can do is say 'well, we sort of think that MAYBE that cyclist did EPO so we'll suspend him FOR HIS OWN SAFETY'... or 'OK, so half the medical experts on the planet think a blood doping positive could be influenced by factors like chimeric twins during pregnancies, but we're going to wreck this guy's career anyway'. This is what passes for sanity in European sports. There's some flakey sports crap going on here in the US, but it tends to make more sense than that. And of course let's not forget how wet all those Northern European roads are all the time. That alone should convince you to forget about riding a bike.

Moreover, if 'they're all doing it' then it's not cheating, is it, it's levelling the playing field. So let's see, they can't really test reliably for it, and if it's that rampant you can't be competitive WITHOUT taking it. And if you're really convinced they're all on EPO and that bothers you, why even follow the sport? The cyncial guilt by implication that's so prevalent in Euro thinking on this is mind blowing to me. So much for innocent until proven guilty eh? Again, why bother with pro cycling at all? Just forget about it and follow a sport without problems - like soccer or FI racing : ).

What a mess.
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Old 11-16-05, 10:25 AM
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Lance doped, most of the peloton has doped at some point.

Its hilarious to me that anyone thinks the guy has been clean the whole time.
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Old 11-16-05, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad

Moreover, if 'they're all doing it' then it's not cheating, is it, it's levelling the playing field. So let's see, they can't really test reliably for it, and if it's that rampant you can't be competitive WITHOUT taking it. And if you're really convinced they're all on EPO and that bothers you, why even follow the sport? The cyncial guilt by implication that's so prevalent in Euro thinking on this is mind blowing to me. So much for innocent until proven guilty eh? Again, why bother with pro cycling at all? Just forget about it and follow a sport without problems - like soccer or FI racing : ).

What a mess.
Um, yes if its outlawed and you do it anyways, it is cheating.

It bothers some of us because Lance denies it every time.
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Old 11-16-05, 10:28 AM
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Patentcad - if you hate the sport so much, why don't you follow NASCAR or AMERICAAAN FOOTBALL or WWF WRESTLING or something equally 'U-S-A, U-S-A'?

If it's a mess, and you want nothing to do with it, then don't follow the sport.

Funny how all the yankee-doodle-doos have suddenly decided that the anti-doping system is screwed exactly as two American riders came under the spotlight.

Where were you all back in 1997 for the Festina fun?
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Old 11-16-05, 10:29 AM
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Its hilarious to me that anyone thinks the guy has been clean the whole time.
But he seems so nice! With all the charity work and the heart-warming cancer survival story and everything!!! He can't be a cheat! He said so on Oprah!
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Old 11-16-05, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Moreover, if 'they're all doing it' then it's not cheating, is it, it's levelling the playing field. So let's see, they can't really test reliably for it, and if it's that rampant you can't be competitive WITHOUT taking it. And if you're really convinced they're all on EPO and that bothers you, why even follow the sport? The cyncial guilt by implication that's so prevalent in Euro thinking on this is mind blowing to me. So much for innocent until proven guilty eh? Again, why bother with pro cycling at all? Just forget about it and follow a sport without problems - like soccer or FI racing : ).

What a mess.
patentcad, It's cheating... there is just no way around that... if the rules say you can't do something and you do it, even if everyone does it, it is still cheating... it's just that everyone is cheating... levelling the playing field maybe, probably, but still cheating.

It doesn't bother me that they are all on EPO, because like you said the playing field is level... best guy still comes out on top...

what is really funny though is how incredible naive people cling to the idea that he was clean.. now that's funny!!
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Old 11-16-05, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by EURO
Patentcad - if you hate the sport so much, why don't you follow NASCAR or AMERICAAAN FOOTBALL or WWF WRESTLING or something equally 'U-S-A, U-S-A'?

If it's a mess, and you want nothing to do with it, then don't follow the sport.

Funny how all the yankee-doodle-doos have suddenly decided that the anti-doping system is screwed exactly as two American riders came under the spotlight.

Where were you all back in 1997 for the Festina fun?

Simmer down, Trigger.
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Old 11-16-05, 11:10 AM
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I'm reading a book on Eddie Merckx right now. Basically, you could substitute "Armstrong" for Merckx and put in new photos and get the same book. Fights, suits, doping scandals, celebrity wives, ...all there in 1970. Except Eddie did more than one race seriously.

This bull**** bickering and eurotrash whining has been going for decades, and it is mostly tied to European nationalism and the pervading thought of eugenics. Basically, the concept in Europe is that if you succeed too much at any sport, you are cheating. the European press loves to crap all over heros of F1 racing and Soccer, to the point that it can drive some of them to what Pantani did.

Sports, especially cycling , also has a long history of sabotage in Europe: assault from fans, broken glass on roads, mysterious doping tests, tainting hotel food-its all been done.

Its a sport, a game, I think the world needs to seriously get a life over sports heros and put this in perspective. Young riders are dying from doping, older riders have died mid-race (Tommy Simpson).

How many books, DVDs and interviews have you seen with the doctors and researchers that saved LA's life?

Given the crap that LA is going through post-career, do people really think that Heras was stupid enough to dope? As a biochemist, I can tell you that false high readings on very good tests for hormones happen every day and can take three samples or more to get an answer. The EPO test is not that good. EPO is a normal human hormone. I'd like the Dick Pounder to test 1000 everyday people and not get a few +ves. the problem is that Pound is not a doctor or scientist, but a lawyer, which measn he's trained in manipulation of information without knowing the basis of that information.

Frankly , the only problem I have with US press is that they really don't give a **** about cycling and don't cover it, they just like cheap scandals because it sells-so who is really to blame? I blame the people who buy those papers and watch those TV shows.

Solution: The US should return the favor, build a large gift statue of a huge fist with raised middle finger and give it to France. Make a decent tour race in the US or aim for the Giro. Boycott the Tour, then maybe the french will have their Champion. There is no reason why the US cannot have a really magnificent tour through the rockies or appalachia.
 
Old 11-16-05, 11:22 AM
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Who really cares whether or not right now. Life is more important than this whitch hunt. If he did, he did. Make him walk the plank. If he didn't, get of his case and find something else to worry about. Like how to cover up all your misdeeds and wrong doings. Let those without sin cast the first stone.
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Old 11-16-05, 11:57 AM
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They have ALL this stuff on LA,then WHY isnt he busted? What are they waiting for? Why wait? Bust him now,come on. Come on all you "keep bringing this BS up" people. What the hell are they waiting for,xmas? I want solid proff and as far as i know,there cant be any because if there was,they would bust him. Others have been. I dont mean proff thats in a fricken fish wrap. Not heresay. Not i heard it from a somebody. If he did,he would be busted NOW! Hey,where's Jimmy Hoffa, some of you must know for sure?
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Old 11-16-05, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by yakes_md
Are you going to throw it at him?

Lance doesn't have whole lot of upper body strength, he may not be able to lift it off of him.
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Old 11-16-05, 12:36 PM
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No I LOVE pro cycling. It's the idiots who run the Tour de France and who do the doping 'control' that I can't stand. It seems to me that it's all you Euro mopes who think the whole sport is corrupted by EPO for decades that 'hate' pro cycling. Why would you follow it if you really believe that?

NASCAR? Pro Wrestling? Not a chance. Now THAT's insulting. Pro baseball (NY Mets), football (NY Giants/Jets) and F1 racing, in that order. After the Tour de France of course, with or without Lance.

On the other hand I'd watch the WWF if they threw that moron Tour Director into the ring with a 275lb. musclehead for a round....
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Old 11-17-05, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by EURO
There was no urinary EPO test in 1999.


Tampering is possible. False positives less so. I think the most plausable explanation is that, like everyone else in 1999, Armstrong was using EPO because he knew he couldn't be caught.


Firstly, it wasn't his first tour. Secondly he'd already won the Tour de Luxembourg in 1998 and placed 4th in the Veulta that year. He was an underdog, but people expected a top ten from him. You don't actually know any of this, do you?



Me too - my experiences are different. I think a single-minded, commited, agressive sportsman will remain so (maybe even more) after overcoming a life-threatening disease. He'd already been given EPO while undergoing therapy for cancer, and the drug isn't really that dangerous (especially when you are under a good doctor, as he always has been). EPO generally kills the guys who are self-administrating and who don't have as good medical care.



I'm not going to 'remember' it, because it isn't true.

Where's Smoothie when you need him?

1. You "think" the most plausible explanation is that he doped? No proof, that's just what you "think". Well, I guess you have the right to think what ever you want. Well I think the most plausible explanation for you thinking that way is you're not where you want to be and are having a problem accepting the fact that he has more talent. Hey, you're still ignoring 6 subsequent victories.

2. When I said "tour", I was referring specifically to the "Tour de France" and didn't think it needed to be spelled out. Does this clarify it for you? Lance raced long before he got cancer. Still ignoring those 6 subsequent victories.

3. Sure, all doctors will give dying cancer patients EPO, and hey! They give them cocaine and steroids and all kinds of illegal drugs because it's fun to power trip with people's lives. Let's keep ignoring those 6 subsequent victories.

4. You don't think that "what goes around, comes around" is true? How old are you anyway, because you just need to give it some time. You know, the people I love the most are the ones who swear that THEY will NEVER get divorced. Not good to mess with karma, because that attitude is almost guaranteed to ensure they will. Favorite example is a guy I knew named Chuck who told me, "All divorced men are losers".

I think the difference between you and me is that when Chuck came to me 2 years later, himself divorced and looking for a job, I didn't remind him of my response to his statement that "All divorced men are losers" was, "what goes around, comes around." No, I kept my mouth firmly shut and listened to him with interest and concern, and did what I could to help out.

I don't see someone else's pain as an opportunity to gloat by rubbing it in.
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Old 11-17-05, 01:41 AM
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Ineedhelp: Lance had raced in the Tour de France prior to 1999, stop making an ass of yourself.
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Old 11-17-05, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by H20.1
Um, yes if its outlawed and you do it anyways, it is cheating.

It bothers some of us because Lance denies it every time.
Unfortunatly for you ,you are unable to prove it otherwise .

Last edited by crank'n; 11-17-05 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 11-17-05, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Gangrel
Ineedhelp: Lance had raced in the Tour de France prior to 1999, stop making an ass of yourself.
It was his first Tour de France AFTER HAVING BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH, AND TREATED FOR CANCER! Now, is that specific enough for you?
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Old 11-17-05, 02:59 AM
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In 99 who came in 2,3,4,5,-10. I wonder how many of them were "clean"?
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Old 11-17-05, 05:27 AM
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and it is mostly tied to European nationalism and the pervading thought of eugenics. Basically, the concept in Europe is that if you succeed too much at any sport, you are cheating. the European press loves to crap all over heros of F1 racing and Soccer, to the point that it can drive some of them to what Pantani did.
Oh my oh my. Eugenics! I love it! check out all the 'David Beckham is doping allegations! he can't get away from them! Fernando Alonso is a drug cheat! It's all over the front pages! Ha ha ha. You’ll be accusing us all of anti-semitism next! How have you enjoyed your trips to Europe, DocRay, and where have you specifically travelled? I’m interested in where you get all this from. Were you reading the European press while watching the special 'High speed descent' stages in the tdf, where Lance rides a special heavy bike?


Let's keep ignoring those 6 subsequent victories.
Yeah! He doped for the first (and most miraculous) one in 1999 - but let's forget that, and only look at the subsequent victories! (sticks fingers in his ears) la la la! I can't hear you!


4. You don't think that "what goes around, comes around" is true? How old are you anyway, because you just need to give it some time. You know, the people I love the most are the ones who swear that THEY will NEVER get divorced. Not good to mess with karma, because that attitude is almost guaranteed to ensure they will. Favorite example is a guy I knew named Chuck who told me, "All divorced men are losers".
‘What goes around comes around’ is a silly bit of nonsense. Karma is bollocks. Astrology doesn’t work. God is dead.


In 99 who came in 2,3,4,5,-10. I wonder how many of them were "clean"?
None of them, probably – along with 99% of the peloton. In fact the Equipe article states that other riders were positive too. EPO is banned. Anyone who uses it should be dealt with.

Please note - I'm not going after Lance - I'm going after all the stupid idiots doping.
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Old 11-17-05, 07:42 AM
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>>What goes around comes around’ is a silly bit of nonsense. Karma is bollocks. Astrology doesn’t work. God is dead.<<

Well, yeah, astrology is nonsense. All that other stuff? It's good not to think that way. I refer you to the constant prinicpal in life known as the 'karmaic ***** slap'. And if you don't believe in that, get ready....
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Old 11-17-05, 07:49 AM
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All that other stuff? It's good not to think that way.
I bet you don't walk under ladders and consult a mystic, right? Got a crystal hanging round you neck?

I hereby request that god all mighty bring down his vengence on me! Come get me! I want some karma! Prove it!
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Old 11-17-05, 08:34 AM
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>>Come get me! I want some karma! Prove it!<<

Stay AWAY from this dude : )....
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Old 11-17-05, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by yakes_md
Are you going to throw it at him?
Just put it in a plastic bag and hold it out in front of his handlebars.
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Old 11-17-05, 10:33 AM
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I hate it when Euro takes a rational (if somewhat caustic) position. It ruins my image of him. While I admire LA and what I have read leads me to believe that EPO testing is far from perfect, it's naive to believe that EPO use is not widespread given the history of doping in the sport. That said, I do think it's a cheap shot to go back 6 years and single out one rider as in Equipe's continued assault on Lance Armstrong. Let's move on.
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