Carbon Fiber Warning
01-11-06, 02:38 PM
#126
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Within two weeks of Mr. Joyce's death, Trek was mailing warnings to registered owners of Trek bikes asking them to inspect their carbon components. Is there a connection between the timing of Trek mailing the warning letters and Mr. Joyce's death? The timing certainly raises that question.
BTY, where did DocRay go?
01-11-06, 02:55 PM
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Queue Robert Stack:
"And next on Unsolved Mysteries, a man buys a bicycle in the quiet retirement area of Lakeland, Florida; but he gets far more than he bargains for. An innocuous bicycle accident on a recreational ride with friends would result in tragedy. A man falls as a result of a possible failure; one that is unexplainable and results in accusations from all directions. The source of the failure would soon prove so puzzling to Bike Forum members that it would eventually start a chain reaction that would wreak untold havoc and put the country on heightened alert, and perhaps in jeopardy. The story starts innocently enough: Bike Forum member "alanbikehouston" (known for his hysterical posts) opines that Trek bikes and carbon fiber construction in general may spontaneously combust, er, something like that. Most forum members see the display as yet another rant by a dealer in the steel and aluminum futures market, but another member asks how the object could have failed. Another member negligently says "he should have been riding steel." It could have ended there, but the demented forum members engage in a never-ending series of investigative exchanges and hysterical pro-carbon/pro-steel rants regarding the alleged failure of the carbon fiber bicycle. The forum is whipped into a frenzy, with accusations flying left and right, and in the midst of all this, the original story cannot even be confirmed. Meanwhile, ISP anti-virus software monitors the strange forum postings and email exchanges and flags them; antivirus managers assume it's a complex computer virus camouflaged through nonsensical gibberish. Puzzled by the complexity of the virus, they take the prudent step and shutdown the forum and all email transmissions on the servers until a solution is found. In a chilling sequence of events, the email debacle goes straight to the top, as the Secret Service, sensing vulnerability and a possible connection to homeland security, halts all incoming email to the DOD, the Pentagon, and the WHITE HOUSE. What exactly happened with this "carbon fiber" object, and how could it have been so harmful? Does this mystery bicycle rider even exist?! The conclusion, next..."
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Last edited by formulaben; 01-11-06 at 03:06 PM.
01-11-06, 03:10 PM
#128
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The man whom FormulaBen laughingly described as buying "a bicycle in a quiet retirement area...but gets far more than he bargains for" was Mr. Terry Joyce. Forumula Ben may think that reports of Mr. Joyce's tragic death are a joking matter. But, the series of articles in his community newspaper indicate that he is greatly missed by his wife and family, by his friends, and by the cycling community. He was not just "some old geezer" fooling around on a bike. He was a serious, skilled, experienced cyclist, riding more than 7000 miles a year, and he placed 9th in his age group in a 20k race last year.
When a prominent American cyclist is killed while riding, his friends and family deserve our sympathy and our support. I am sure that Trek wants to know what happened, and if there is a problem with the design of the fork on the Trek Madone, Trek is going to fix it. Trek will not be posting any "humorous" comments about the death of Mr. Joyce...perhaps DocRay and Forumula Ben could learn something from the folks at Trek.
When a prominent American cyclist is killed while riding, his friends and family deserve our sympathy and our support. I am sure that Trek wants to know what happened, and if there is a problem with the design of the fork on the Trek Madone, Trek is going to fix it. Trek will not be posting any "humorous" comments about the death of Mr. Joyce...perhaps DocRay and Forumula Ben could learn something from the folks at Trek.
Last edited by alanbikehouston; 01-11-06 at 03:29 PM.
01-11-06, 03:16 PM
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Please feel free to post an article of the accident or an obit. My post has nothing to do with a "Mr Joyce", just the lunacy of this forum. Nowhere did I make fun of anyone's death.
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01-11-06, 04:15 PM
#130
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Liked the post formulaben... except for the Lakeland, FL commentary. While you were not making fun, you were also not respecting the deceased. Imagine if one of Mr. Joyce's family members or friends read that. Feel free to edit it.
A
A
01-11-06, 04:15 PM
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Where and when did this urban legend that carbon composites fail suddenly, catastrophically and without warning surface??? If carbon composites were such an unpredictable and unreliable structural element it would not be so widely used as a primarily structural component in the aerospace, aviation, performance automobile, performance motorcycle, performance marine, etc., etc., industries
Actually, the exact opposite is true. A quality laminate will telegraph problems developing in the laminate. The properties of carbon fibre are much higher than the resin matrix within which it is laminated. Overload stress and developing problems will show up as failures along the fibre/matrix interface and/or as micro or macro cracking of the matrix. That is one of the wonderful things about a nude carbon frame; it is possible to read what is occurring within the laminate.
My suggestion is that if you are scared of a carbon component, you should not use it. If you want a higher safety facor, don't push the weight limits.
On another note, it was interesting to read the newspaper article of the accident in that crash occurred after dark at a time when the trial was closed. Why no urban legends about the hazards of riding on park trails after dark and/or when they are closed? Perhaps, it was a squirrel resident of the park who was annoyed at the riders who were disturbing the squirrel family when the riders should not have been in the park. Possibly, this annoyed squirrel that took out the fork and caused the crash. After all, there is precedent for this type accident.
Obviously, the fork will be undergoing forensic analysis as to the cause of the failure. Perhaps, we should wait for valid factual data as to the cause of the failure rather than jumping to conclusions?
I usually try to look at the bright side of things. On possilbe bennefit of this maybe a temporary decrease in the market value of high end carbon bikes & I can get a really good deal on a new one.
Just my $02. Bob
Actually, the exact opposite is true. A quality laminate will telegraph problems developing in the laminate. The properties of carbon fibre are much higher than the resin matrix within which it is laminated. Overload stress and developing problems will show up as failures along the fibre/matrix interface and/or as micro or macro cracking of the matrix. That is one of the wonderful things about a nude carbon frame; it is possible to read what is occurring within the laminate.
My suggestion is that if you are scared of a carbon component, you should not use it. If you want a higher safety facor, don't push the weight limits.
On another note, it was interesting to read the newspaper article of the accident in that crash occurred after dark at a time when the trial was closed. Why no urban legends about the hazards of riding on park trails after dark and/or when they are closed? Perhaps, it was a squirrel resident of the park who was annoyed at the riders who were disturbing the squirrel family when the riders should not have been in the park. Possibly, this annoyed squirrel that took out the fork and caused the crash. After all, there is precedent for this type accident.
Obviously, the fork will be undergoing forensic analysis as to the cause of the failure. Perhaps, we should wait for valid factual data as to the cause of the failure rather than jumping to conclusions?
I usually try to look at the bright side of things. On possilbe bennefit of this maybe a temporary decrease in the market value of high end carbon bikes & I can get a really good deal on a new one.
Just my $02. Bob
01-11-06, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by clfjmpr44
Liked the post formulaben... except for the Lakeland, FL commentary. While you were not making fun, you were also not respecting the deceased. Imagine if one of Mr. Joyce's family members or friends read that. Feel free to edit it.
A
A
"Lakeland, FL" was completely made up, just like the rest of the story. Please show me where I mentioned the biker in this ficticious story died?!
Feel free to edit your assumptions.
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01-11-06, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by formulaben
"Lakeland, FL" was completely made up, just like the rest of the story. Please show me where I mentioned the biker in this ficticious story died?! Feel free to edit your assumptions.
Feel free to edit your assumptions.
01-11-06, 04:31 PM
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The next logical turn for this "discussion" is the efficacy of the helmet this rider was or was not wearing.
Ducking and running. . . .
Ducking and running. . . .
Last edited by hiracer; 01-11-06 at 04:44 PM.
01-11-06, 04:56 PM
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...or riding in the dark, or...
Look, the entire thread is pure speculation until something difinitive comes out regarding the failure. He could have hit a pothole in the dark, or it could have been a spontaneous catastrophic failure...we just don't know. My point (which was obviously lost on Alanbikehouston and clfjmpr44) was that this forum unfortunately provides an enormous source of opinion and speculation, yet nobody really knows anything regarding the specific failure until there is a published analysis on the failed parts and/or the accident itself.
Look, the entire thread is pure speculation until something difinitive comes out regarding the failure. He could have hit a pothole in the dark, or it could have been a spontaneous catastrophic failure...we just don't know. My point (which was obviously lost on Alanbikehouston and clfjmpr44) was that this forum unfortunately provides an enormous source of opinion and speculation, yet nobody really knows anything regarding the specific failure until there is a published analysis on the failed parts and/or the accident itself.
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01-11-06, 05:02 PM
#136
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Bob S.
I don't know where the idea that CF will fail catastrophically started but
obviously Trek thinks something is going on otherwise they would never
have sent the warning.
I do know that CF when impacted is much more fragile than Ti, Steel or Alu,
evidence the Euskatel Rider who's fork was impacted by a piece of chain
(as in chain link not bike chain?) and it shattered in the Vuelta (was it Lasaika?).
If that fork were any material other than CF it would not have shattered.
I'm disturbed by the amount of animosity in this thread, and general
mud slinging going on. Ridiculing someone for their beliefs or opinions
are not exactly what we are about here. Argue, debate and discuss
just keep the personal attacks out of it.
marty
I don't know where the idea that CF will fail catastrophically started but
obviously Trek thinks something is going on otherwise they would never
have sent the warning.
I do know that CF when impacted is much more fragile than Ti, Steel or Alu,
evidence the Euskatel Rider who's fork was impacted by a piece of chain
(as in chain link not bike chain?) and it shattered in the Vuelta (was it Lasaika?).
If that fork were any material other than CF it would not have shattered.
I'm disturbed by the amount of animosity in this thread, and general
mud slinging going on. Ridiculing someone for their beliefs or opinions
are not exactly what we are about here. Argue, debate and discuss
just keep the personal attacks out of it.
marty
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01-11-06, 05:08 PM
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Nevermind Ben, you must of missed the part where I said I liked your post. I agree with you that the argument on this thread has turned to lunacy, which is the point you were trying to get across in your humor-filled post if I am not mistaken. I took issue with your trivializing of a death in a humorous post.
01-11-06, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by clfjmpr44
Nevermind Ben, you must of missed the part where I said I liked your post. I agree with you that the argument on this thread has turned to lunacy, which is the point you were trying to get across in your humor-filled post if I am not mistaken. I took issue with your trivializing of a death in a humorous post.
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01-11-06, 05:50 PM
#139
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It appears that Joyce bought the bike used from a person in Hawaii via the internet.
https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/7...rticle26iu.jpg
I wonder if it's possible to get charged with negligent homicide or something for selling a carbon bike that's been crashed and not telling the buyer of its history? Just about about impossible to prove a case like that. Still, the poster who is privy to the post-accident email newsletters of Joyce's cycle club formed an opinion that the fork failed catastrophically. I bet the investigation will take awhile until they conclude there isn't any or enough proof of a sale of damaged goods. That has got to be part of the investigation.
https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/7...rticle26iu.jpg
I wonder if it's possible to get charged with negligent homicide or something for selling a carbon bike that's been crashed and not telling the buyer of its history? Just about about impossible to prove a case like that. Still, the poster who is privy to the post-accident email newsletters of Joyce's cycle club formed an opinion that the fork failed catastrophically. I bet the investigation will take awhile until they conclude there isn't any or enough proof of a sale of damaged goods. That has got to be part of the investigation.
Last edited by hiracer; 01-11-06 at 07:00 PM.
01-11-06, 06:12 PM
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i'm embarrassed that i didn't actually read the article... this whole thread is based on pure speculation... NO WHERE in that story does it say they know how the forks broke... it's just as likely they broke because of a squirel, a pump, a stick or a previous crash... over on the advocay and safety forum at least they seemed to recognize that they were speculating and not dealing with fact... one poster says that the bike was bought second hand from Hawaii [Edit] so who knows what abuse it might have been subjected to before Mr Joyce even got his hands on it... but again... speculation...
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...lists+Critical
https://www.sptimes.com/2005/11/12/No...sts_stil.shtml
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...lists+Critical
Originally Posted by St. Petersburg Times
Injured cyclists still in hospital
An after-dark accident involving two Pinellas Trail riders Thursday leaves one in critical condition after he flipped over his handlebars.
By ROBIN STEIN
Published November 12, 2005
Two cyclists injured in an accident on the Pinellas Trail Thursday evening remained hospitalized Friday.
Terry Joyce, 69, of Dunedin was in critical condition at Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg.
Mitch A. Scott, 47, of Palm Harbor was in stable condition at Helen Ellis Memorial Hospital in Tarpon Springs.
Investigators are still working to determine what caused the accident, but they believe a mechanical defect in Joyce's bike might be to blame, said Pinellas County sheriff's spokesman Mac McMullen.
"Right now the focus of investigation is what caused the accident, and the investigation is continuing," he said.
The two men were among 16 cyclists on a weekly ride from Dunedin to Trinity in Pasco County.
McMullen said the group was traveling between 16 and 19 mph and had just passed Alderman Road when the crash occurred about 6:30 p.m., about 50 minutes past sundown.
Joyce, a competitive rider who placed ninth in the Florida Senior Games 20-kilometer race last December, was thrown over the handle bars and struck his head on the pavement.
Two people began giving artificial respiration to Joyce as they waited for medical personnel to arrive, McMullen said. Neither his family nor fellow club members could be reached Friday.
Scott, who had been trailing close behind, crashed into Joyce's bike and fell to the ground.
The Sheriff's Office impounded Joyce's bike, a Trek Madone 5.9, for further investigation. Witnesses and investigators on the scene said it appeared the fork holding the front wheel in place might have bent or snapped, McMullen said. The performance model bike retails for just under $5,000.
The evening rides are an informal gathering of members of the Suncoast Cycling Club, a local advocacy and activity group.
The club is oriented toward serious riders, said Bob Nohren, owner of the Energy Conservatory Bike Shop in Dunedin. It also sponsors large charity events, including the Diabetes Challenge Ride in Dunedin on Sunday, which is expected to draw hundreds of participants.
The riders Thursday evening were all wearing helmets and safety lights, according to McMullen, himself a member of the club.
While there is no evidence to suggest the group was exceeding the 20 mph speed limit posted at that point on the trail, trail rules prohibit race training and pace lines, in which cyclists ride very close behind one another to reduce wind resistance.
There is a county ordinance prohibiting use of the trail after sundown, McMullen said. The sun set at 5:40 p.m. Thursday.
The accident is the second in a little more than a month to send cyclists to local hospitals for treatment.
On Oct. 5, two cyclists collided on a stretch of the trail in Largo.
Mark Sundbom, 36, of Largo, turned left at the bottom of the ramp on the Ulmerton Road overpass just as Carl Robichaud, 62, of Belleair Bluffs, tried to pass him on the left. The two collided and were thrown from their bikes, authorities said.
While investigators have not cited human error as a factor in this week's accident, veteran cyclists say safety needs to be a primary concern, even on a trail with no car or truck traffic.
"You just have to be really vigilant because you are so exposed," said Rosi Prescott, who is visiting from London with her husband. The couple, both avid cyclists, said the mix of experienced and novice cyclists on the trail seems to create the occasional communication breakdown.
Nohren, who teaches bike safety in the area, said that given the 100,000 people using the trail in a normal month, the accident rate is virtually zero.
"There is no safer place to be on your bike than the trail," he said.
- Robin Stein can be reached at rstein@sptimes.com or 727 445-4157.
RULES OF THE PINELLAS TRAIL
Pedestrians and people with handicaps have the right of way.
Wheelchairs should use the pedestrian lanes and electric wheelchairs are always permitted.
Bicyclists must obey all traffic controls and signals.
Bicyclists are not permitted to wear headphones at any time.
Bicyclists under 16 must wear helmets.
Electric bicycles are not allowed on the trail.
Bicyclists and skaters should obey posted speed limits.
Racing, race training or pace lines are prohibited.
Skaters should use the bicycle lanes, and both skaters and cyclists should give an audible warning when passing.
Motorized vehicles (except electric wheelchairs, maintenance, law enforcement and emergency vehicles) are not allowed on the trail.
Horses are not allowed. Other pets must be kept on a maximum 6-foot leash and under control.
The trail is open only during daylight hours.
Alcohol is prohibited.
[Last modified November 12, 2005, 00:54:17]
An after-dark accident involving two Pinellas Trail riders Thursday leaves one in critical condition after he flipped over his handlebars.
By ROBIN STEIN
Published November 12, 2005
Two cyclists injured in an accident on the Pinellas Trail Thursday evening remained hospitalized Friday.
Terry Joyce, 69, of Dunedin was in critical condition at Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg.
Mitch A. Scott, 47, of Palm Harbor was in stable condition at Helen Ellis Memorial Hospital in Tarpon Springs.
Investigators are still working to determine what caused the accident, but they believe a mechanical defect in Joyce's bike might be to blame, said Pinellas County sheriff's spokesman Mac McMullen.
"Right now the focus of investigation is what caused the accident, and the investigation is continuing," he said.
The two men were among 16 cyclists on a weekly ride from Dunedin to Trinity in Pasco County.
McMullen said the group was traveling between 16 and 19 mph and had just passed Alderman Road when the crash occurred about 6:30 p.m., about 50 minutes past sundown.
Joyce, a competitive rider who placed ninth in the Florida Senior Games 20-kilometer race last December, was thrown over the handle bars and struck his head on the pavement.
Two people began giving artificial respiration to Joyce as they waited for medical personnel to arrive, McMullen said. Neither his family nor fellow club members could be reached Friday.
Scott, who had been trailing close behind, crashed into Joyce's bike and fell to the ground.
The Sheriff's Office impounded Joyce's bike, a Trek Madone 5.9, for further investigation. Witnesses and investigators on the scene said it appeared the fork holding the front wheel in place might have bent or snapped, McMullen said. The performance model bike retails for just under $5,000.
The evening rides are an informal gathering of members of the Suncoast Cycling Club, a local advocacy and activity group.
The club is oriented toward serious riders, said Bob Nohren, owner of the Energy Conservatory Bike Shop in Dunedin. It also sponsors large charity events, including the Diabetes Challenge Ride in Dunedin on Sunday, which is expected to draw hundreds of participants.
The riders Thursday evening were all wearing helmets and safety lights, according to McMullen, himself a member of the club.
While there is no evidence to suggest the group was exceeding the 20 mph speed limit posted at that point on the trail, trail rules prohibit race training and pace lines, in which cyclists ride very close behind one another to reduce wind resistance.
There is a county ordinance prohibiting use of the trail after sundown, McMullen said. The sun set at 5:40 p.m. Thursday.
The accident is the second in a little more than a month to send cyclists to local hospitals for treatment.
On Oct. 5, two cyclists collided on a stretch of the trail in Largo.
Mark Sundbom, 36, of Largo, turned left at the bottom of the ramp on the Ulmerton Road overpass just as Carl Robichaud, 62, of Belleair Bluffs, tried to pass him on the left. The two collided and were thrown from their bikes, authorities said.
While investigators have not cited human error as a factor in this week's accident, veteran cyclists say safety needs to be a primary concern, even on a trail with no car or truck traffic.
"You just have to be really vigilant because you are so exposed," said Rosi Prescott, who is visiting from London with her husband. The couple, both avid cyclists, said the mix of experienced and novice cyclists on the trail seems to create the occasional communication breakdown.
Nohren, who teaches bike safety in the area, said that given the 100,000 people using the trail in a normal month, the accident rate is virtually zero.
"There is no safer place to be on your bike than the trail," he said.
- Robin Stein can be reached at rstein@sptimes.com or 727 445-4157.
RULES OF THE PINELLAS TRAIL
Pedestrians and people with handicaps have the right of way.
Wheelchairs should use the pedestrian lanes and electric wheelchairs are always permitted.
Bicyclists must obey all traffic controls and signals.
Bicyclists are not permitted to wear headphones at any time.
Bicyclists under 16 must wear helmets.
Electric bicycles are not allowed on the trail.
Bicyclists and skaters should obey posted speed limits.
Racing, race training or pace lines are prohibited.
Skaters should use the bicycle lanes, and both skaters and cyclists should give an audible warning when passing.
Motorized vehicles (except electric wheelchairs, maintenance, law enforcement and emergency vehicles) are not allowed on the trail.
Horses are not allowed. Other pets must be kept on a maximum 6-foot leash and under control.
The trail is open only during daylight hours.
Alcohol is prohibited.
[Last modified November 12, 2005, 00:54:17]
01-11-06, 06:58 PM
#141
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
NO WHERE in that story does it say they know how the forks broke...
01-11-06, 07:23 PM
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"Catastrophic Failure" is the term I used to summarize the information I had heard personally and was reported by the St. Petersburg Times as referenced in post #111.
I'm not sure ANYONE knows with absolute certainty what happened. If a product liability suit is pursued by the family, details of the allegation should be public information once the suit is filed. Whether the family has a claim or not may be impacted by the fact the bike was bought used.
In any event, since these kinds of cases are usually settled prior to being tried in court, it seems unlikely that any of us will ever have access to a thorough analysis of what really happened.
The most any of us should expect to see is an increase in warning labels on carbon fiber products...
I'm not sure ANYONE knows with absolute certainty what happened. If a product liability suit is pursued by the family, details of the allegation should be public information once the suit is filed. Whether the family has a claim or not may be impacted by the fact the bike was bought used.
In any event, since these kinds of cases are usually settled prior to being tried in court, it seems unlikely that any of us will ever have access to a thorough analysis of what really happened.
The most any of us should expect to see is an increase in warning labels on carbon fiber products...
01-11-06, 09:43 PM
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[QUOTE=lotek I'm disturbed by the amount of animosity in this thread, and general mud slinging going on. Ridiculing someone for their beliefs or opinions are not exactly what we are about here. Argue, debate and discuss just keep the personal attacks out of it. marty[/QUOTE]
Marty, I agree completely. Through-out my posts I believe that I have been conservative and urged caution before jumping to conclusions. Certainly, I was not attempting to ridicule anyone for their beliefs. If it was taken that way, I apoligize to any and all offended persons. I was simply attempting to post the fact that that carbon composites are an accepted and proven structural element. As stated elsewehere, all this is conjecture until a forensic failure analysis is completed.
Any part is subject to failure when it is exposed to loads inexcess to what is was designed and intended for. Really, how realistic is the test of the servicability of a carbon fork when the fork is put in a vice an bent to destruction? This is not the loads the fork experiences in service.
Really, let's be realistic and wait until details are available. Unfortunately, sometimes the details are never available becuase they are sealed as part of the terms of litigation settlement.
Marty, I agree completely. Through-out my posts I believe that I have been conservative and urged caution before jumping to conclusions. Certainly, I was not attempting to ridicule anyone for their beliefs. If it was taken that way, I apoligize to any and all offended persons. I was simply attempting to post the fact that that carbon composites are an accepted and proven structural element. As stated elsewehere, all this is conjecture until a forensic failure analysis is completed.
Any part is subject to failure when it is exposed to loads inexcess to what is was designed and intended for. Really, how realistic is the test of the servicability of a carbon fork when the fork is put in a vice an bent to destruction? This is not the loads the fork experiences in service.
Really, let's be realistic and wait until details are available. Unfortunately, sometimes the details are never available becuase they are sealed as part of the terms of litigation settlement.
01-11-06, 10:39 PM
#145
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I am amazed that any literate person could carefully read, study, and think about Trek's warnings about the nature of how carbon tubes fail and then post to say "Golly, I don't think it is possible that a carbon fork could suddenly fail..." Does anyone really think Trek is making this up?
The folks at Trek are trying to make two points clear to bike owners: 1. Unlike a steel tube, a carbon tube that has been fatally injured by a severe impact may have no VISIBLE damage...no dent, no bending. 2. Unlike a damaged steel tube, a fatally damaged carbon tube does not weaken gradually, over a period of months or years. The failure mode of a carbon tube is that it can crack or shatter the instant that impact stress exceeds design limits.
Several posters have asked: "Well, steel forks break and carbon forks break, so what difference is there between them?"
The difference is simple. Pick up a paper clip. Bend it until it loses its shape. The metal is bent, but it continues to hold together. That is how a steel tube functions under stress. You can take a crowbar, and bend a well-made steel bike frame until the frame is twisted like a pretzel, and the frame still will not break. Heck, you might even be able to realign the tubes enough to make the bike rideable.
In contrast, a carbon tube is like a crisp pretzel. Twist it a little, and nothing happens. Twist or stress a pretzel until it begins to bend, and it suddenly snaps into pieces.
Does anyone think that the engineers at Easton are lying about their carbon handlebars? Easton warns its customers to ONLY use a torque wrench to tighten the stem around a Easton carbon handlebar. And, they warn that if while tightening the stem, you hear a "cracking" noise, you should immediately replace the bar with a new bar, even if there is no visible damage to the handlebar. So, is Easton lying about their own products?
And, the owner's manuals that come with carbon seatposts and frames with carbon seat tubes state owners should use a torque wrench to tighten the seat clamp. Why? If the clamp is overtightened, the seat post may crack, or the seat tube portion of the frame may crack. The companies that make and sell carbon seatposts are lying about their own products? I don't think so.
There is NO dispute in the series of news stories about the death that occured on a Trek Madone that the fork failed. That was confirmed by eyewitnesses (there were 16 riders in the group) and by investigators. What remains to be determined is how and when the fork failed. Perhaps the fork failed before the crash, and was the cause of the crash. Perhaps the crash was caused by a defect in the pavement, and the fork broke during the crash. Perhaps the fork broke when another rider piled into the damaged Trek. But, the fork did not merely get a dent, a ding, or get misaligned, as a steel fork does during a crash. The fork failed.
So, Forum members can either trust Trek's knowledge of carbon components, or the "knowledge" of the "Carbon is unbreakable" bunch. I'm gonna trust the engineers at Trek, and heed their warnings.
The folks at Trek are trying to make two points clear to bike owners: 1. Unlike a steel tube, a carbon tube that has been fatally injured by a severe impact may have no VISIBLE damage...no dent, no bending. 2. Unlike a damaged steel tube, a fatally damaged carbon tube does not weaken gradually, over a period of months or years. The failure mode of a carbon tube is that it can crack or shatter the instant that impact stress exceeds design limits.
Several posters have asked: "Well, steel forks break and carbon forks break, so what difference is there between them?"
The difference is simple. Pick up a paper clip. Bend it until it loses its shape. The metal is bent, but it continues to hold together. That is how a steel tube functions under stress. You can take a crowbar, and bend a well-made steel bike frame until the frame is twisted like a pretzel, and the frame still will not break. Heck, you might even be able to realign the tubes enough to make the bike rideable.
In contrast, a carbon tube is like a crisp pretzel. Twist it a little, and nothing happens. Twist or stress a pretzel until it begins to bend, and it suddenly snaps into pieces.
Does anyone think that the engineers at Easton are lying about their carbon handlebars? Easton warns its customers to ONLY use a torque wrench to tighten the stem around a Easton carbon handlebar. And, they warn that if while tightening the stem, you hear a "cracking" noise, you should immediately replace the bar with a new bar, even if there is no visible damage to the handlebar. So, is Easton lying about their own products?
And, the owner's manuals that come with carbon seatposts and frames with carbon seat tubes state owners should use a torque wrench to tighten the seat clamp. Why? If the clamp is overtightened, the seat post may crack, or the seat tube portion of the frame may crack. The companies that make and sell carbon seatposts are lying about their own products? I don't think so.
There is NO dispute in the series of news stories about the death that occured on a Trek Madone that the fork failed. That was confirmed by eyewitnesses (there were 16 riders in the group) and by investigators. What remains to be determined is how and when the fork failed. Perhaps the fork failed before the crash, and was the cause of the crash. Perhaps the crash was caused by a defect in the pavement, and the fork broke during the crash. Perhaps the fork broke when another rider piled into the damaged Trek. But, the fork did not merely get a dent, a ding, or get misaligned, as a steel fork does during a crash. The fork failed.
So, Forum members can either trust Trek's knowledge of carbon components, or the "knowledge" of the "Carbon is unbreakable" bunch. I'm gonna trust the engineers at Trek, and heed their warnings.
Last edited by alanbikehouston; 01-11-06 at 11:24 PM.
01-11-06, 10:52 PM
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*plonk*
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01-11-06, 10:55 PM
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I'm still not sure what you, alanbikehouston, are saying. Carbon fails or carbon MAY fail. You seem to emphasize that it DOES FAIL. I will not ignore Trek's warning. But if they think that they sent me a decal to apply, I don't think that the 3rd page contained any decal. It is merely printed on paper.
I recall seeing a photo in Bicycling Magazine a number of years ago on their closing page where a tire was peeling off the rim on a downhill. Looked pretty messy. In the past on my now broken, altho, not catastrophically broken steel frame, riding down a hill and glancing at the odo and seeing 46mph and realizing how thin those spokes were and how any gravel might be nasty. And yes, a squirrel could break my fork but if that squirrel hits me at 46mph (me, not it) I think I'm going down pretty painfully carbon or not.
Similarly, if a water bottle cage loosens and drops into the front gears (yup, happened at very slow speed) I'm sure that bike will take me for a tumble. And if I forget to engage the quick release starting at the top of a hill things may not go smoothly (no, has not yet happened).
I don't believe anyone repairs, well, aluminum either and I've had aluminum ski poles crack quickly.
I hope my new Trek lasts as long as I do and I hope neither of us spontaneously crumbles caused by either of us.
I guess as others have said, if there really is an issue, we will certainly be hearing about it with all the carbon forks now going out there. I hope we don't learn too late for some if there really is the problem you seem to be emphasizing.
Peace....
I recall seeing a photo in Bicycling Magazine a number of years ago on their closing page where a tire was peeling off the rim on a downhill. Looked pretty messy. In the past on my now broken, altho, not catastrophically broken steel frame, riding down a hill and glancing at the odo and seeing 46mph and realizing how thin those spokes were and how any gravel might be nasty. And yes, a squirrel could break my fork but if that squirrel hits me at 46mph (me, not it) I think I'm going down pretty painfully carbon or not.
Similarly, if a water bottle cage loosens and drops into the front gears (yup, happened at very slow speed) I'm sure that bike will take me for a tumble. And if I forget to engage the quick release starting at the top of a hill things may not go smoothly (no, has not yet happened).
I don't believe anyone repairs, well, aluminum either and I've had aluminum ski poles crack quickly.
I hope my new Trek lasts as long as I do and I hope neither of us spontaneously crumbles caused by either of us.
I guess as others have said, if there really is an issue, we will certainly be hearing about it with all the carbon forks now going out there. I hope we don't learn too late for some if there really is the problem you seem to be emphasizing.
Peace....
01-12-06, 12:04 AM
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if you leave a carbon-framed bike out in the sun it will melt--you'll come back and it looks like pudding with strands of hair in it
if you put the pudding in a bag, you can mail to trek for a new frame
if you put the pudding in a bag, you can mail to trek for a new frame
01-12-06, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Trek should be congratulated on its efforts to educate cyclists about the nature of carbon components. Hopefully, the rest of the industry will follow Trek's lead, and we will be better able to enjoy our carbon bikes while riding safely.
If you want to ride bikes like this, be aware. Be aware that super light pro components are not designed to be ridden for 10 years. My suggestion, and I tell people this all the time, is if you are a crazy rider and expect to crash and cannot replace the frame, there are other great bikes that will be fun to ride that are more durable. Honestly, if you cannot afford to replace what a pro gets for free, and you are going to ride like a crazy pro sprinter, understand that there are consequences.
These bikes sell because the majority of people do not ride like this. It is not an issue.
These bikes are like racing engines designed to be run for 500 miles, then blow up. That can be unacceptable for the everyday user. I said it before, if you ride the daylights out of one of these frames, do not expect it to last for 10 years.
Be careful. Don't crash. Inspect your bike before every ride. Since I see the stuff checked into our service area, 95% of riders don't even lube their chains.
If I was still racing and had to buy my bike, there is no way I would race what I am riding. I'd get a TCR aluminum Giant or something that could get busted up and not cost much to replace.
Last...a question for anyone who might know....the guy that was killed...was he wearing a helmet? I am just curious. It sounds like (after sorting through the gobbledygoop in this thread) he hit his head.
Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-12-06 at 07:09 AM.