askrom

As part of my new indoor-trainer regimen, I am trying to work on my cadence. From research, I have learned that my normal pedaling style is abnormally-slow "pounding": usually in the 60-70 rpm range, almost always in my big front gear.

But I'm learning that "normal" cadences range in the 75-105 range, with 85-95 being a central "normal" zone. I've also learned that even serious racers apparently use their small front chainring a lot (I only ever use it on huge hills).

So now I'm deliberately trying to work on spinning to see what improvements I can make over the long haul.

I know all of this is highly variable based on gearing and my trainer's resistance settings... but for the following examples let's say I set the resistance to medium ("3" out of "5") and my gearing to, say, 39x21.

Here's the problem: Whenever I exceed 80 RPMs or so, I start to feel like I'm literally pedaling ahead of myself. I'm bouncing around like mad, and looking a little like a beginner cyclist who hasn't figured out how to get their new 10-speed out of their easiest gear. Some training regimens even encourage bursts of cadences in the 100-105 range, and at those speeds I feel like a total spastic. It literally feels like I'm pedaling against no resistance at all. Basically just spinning my legs and exerting nearly no pressure on the pedals. It's almost impossible to work on my upstrokes (pulling up on the rearward pedal) when even the slightest exertion on each downstroke is all the exertion I need to keep pace.

Is that what high-cadence training should be like? Should I be trying to learn how to spin my legs quickly and smoothly, exerting little power but at high speeds? (I have noticed that after doing it a few times, I feel less spastic spinning at high speeds, and I bounce around in the saddle less). Or should I be increasing the resistance and/or gearing to the make this high-cadence pedaling a little harder?

Can anyone recommend a web site with basic information about this stuff? Thanks!

Markio

I think maybe it gets more easy naturally. I was the same way but now I can spin like 120rpm and not feel like a dolt. They say high cadence is not very different from low cadence except for it expends less energy over a long period of time.

tacofreedom

Try raising you saddle.

SpongeDad

Really spastic, then spastic, then kinda spastic, then not too bad, then comfortable.

Basically, yes, you should feel uncomfortable and, yes, you will improve. It's a drill, so it's not supposed to emulate field conditions. The point is to train your leg speed / pedal stroke to be smooth and quick. I think upping the tension defeats this and leads to high speed mashing instead of "pedaling in a circle."

EURO

In races? Nonsense.

jslopez

fixed gear with a 48x18 has "fixed" me. Literally the week after I installed the 18 cog (from 16) my cadence on the road bike also changed (from the 80-90 range to the 90-110 range.

GuitarWizard

It takes practice, and re-training yourself if you've always been a masher. I can easily maintain a 110-120 rpm cadence out on the road with no "bouncing", but I typically keep it in between 90-105 rpms. Oddly enough, riding on a trainer, I find it more "comfortable" to maintain between 80-90 rpms.....but during intervals, hitting 120 rpms for me is not uncommon.

You just need to do it, and work on keeping your upper body still and imagine yourself pedaling a complete circle. Work on finding a gear that you're comfortable in for keeping a 90 rpm cadence, and just go with it.

WD_40

My training program (Arnie Baker's "High Intensity Training") has me building cadence up to 135rpm just during spin-up. The reason you're bouncing so badly is that your pedal stroke isn't smooth at higher RPMs yet. Try doing some ILTs also, that might help.

Duke of Kent

Uhhh if you're in your 39x21, of course you're not going to feel anything unless its a super-hard hill. I usually ride in my 39x14 or 53x19, around 90-100rpms. If you have no resistance on the pedals, high cadence work will not help you. So, get in the 39x15/16/17 and try that.

askrom

Okay, maybe not a "lot", but compared to me quite a bit. For me, it's damn near "never". I've been on training rides with cat-3s and observed them using their 39s on long not-so-steep slopes when I was still mashing in my 52.

AnthonyG

Are you short legged with long cranks?

I'm thinking that somethings wrong with your setup because bouncing at 80 rpm sounds a bit much. OK I like spinning but I still feel like I'm mashing at 85 rpm!

Maybe try moving your seat down a little to help you smooth out your stroke. Consider crank length, https://www.cranklength.info and see sheldon's article on fit, https://sheldonbrown.com/frame-sizing.html

Regards, Anthony

SpongeDad

Euro is all-knowing of course, but this article from Velonews suggests that Basso did Alpe d’Huez in 36 x 21.

"My Tour has still been stupendous," the Italian said. "It was a slight blow to lose second place to Klöden by just a few seconds but, the truth is, I could even have lost third place to (Jan) Ullrich without a good ride in the time trial.

"Before the Tour I said I was aiming for the top five and so a place on the podium, even third place, is a dream come true for me. I couldn't ask for more."
Basso said his low point was the mountain time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez in the Alps, when he could only manage an eighth-place finish, 2:23 behind Armstrong.

"L'Alpe d'Huez time trial was the most difficult moment of the whole Tour for me," he said. "I'm not a good time trialist but we'd worked hard to improve my technique - unfortunately we made a mistake when choosing my gears.

"In training, a front chain ring of 36 combined with a 21-tooth cog behind seemed ideal but on the day after almost two weeks of hard racing it was too big a gear and I struggled to turn the pedals in my usual cadence."
https://www.velonews.com/tour2004/new...es/6667.0.html

Are they riding in the 39 in the flat stages? No, but that's not what the OP said.

DannoXYZ 

It's not unusual if the rider doesn't have any experience with spinning and uses an up & down pedal motion. I find scooting the seat forward about 1cm ahead of KOPS helps makes spinning easier. It lowers the leverage of the quads and lets you use the hamstrings more.

But high-cadence in itself is not the holy-grail. It's the smooth round pedal-motion that you want and when you're smooth, the high-cadence takes care of itself automatically. You'll find yourself using lower gears as you go faster in order to reduce pedal effort.

No need to regurgitate stuff, here's other topics:

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/166398-definition-spinning-i-d-like-hear-you-subject.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/152069-how-do-you-get-better-pedaling-circles.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/151151-image-muscles-used-parts-pedal-stroke.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/166274-cadence-flats.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/127450-spinning-circles.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/135013-how-spin.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/128046-spinning-mashing.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/135046-mashing-worst-thing-your-knees.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/164073-cadence-question.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/140199-switching-mashing-spinning.html

SDRider

I start to bounce at around 110rpm. I'd just say keep at it and possibly look at your bike fit.

Eatadonut

I used to be a masher - just don't let yourself drop below 90 for the next few weeks, try to keep it above 100. Your pedal stroke will start to even out, and you'll bounce less. Feel like you're "floating" on the pedals, that helps me.

slagjumper

One thing that might help cut down on the bouncing is to train your legs to move in circles by using clips and only one foot in a low gear. I have a tandem and really can tell if there is someone who is not used to spinning on the back. I am presuming that your seat is the correct height. If your seat is too high your pelvis would rock up and down and that would limit your cadence. I guess that I am a natural. I've been able to hit 145-150 RPM range since I was 17 and can still do it at 43.

Little Darwin

STUPID DOUBLE POSTING!!! Ignore this one.

Little Darwin

I used to grind at 60, and increased cadence slowly my natural cadence has reached about 85, and I can ride at 90 when I concentrate on keeping the RPM up. I used to bounce at 90, now it is smooth... I still want to increase my comfort level with a higher cadence, but I can hit as high as 120 for short periods with minimal bounce.

Don't worry about getting to 100+ right away, just sick with the highest cadence you can do without bouncing. After you do that for a few weeks, bump it up again. It won't take you too long to get there.

laduckslayer

I agree. To find out how you (me included) suck at spinning, hook up to the trainer, do a warm up then unclip on foot. Pedal with one leg, then the other. I started at small intervals, first one minute for five or six sets with each foot, then two minutes, then... well you can figure that out. The one legged interval, a cure for the masher.

BlastRadius

Like slagjumper mentioned, if you're bouncing it's likely your saddle is too high.
If you have the means, try a fixed gear bike to train your spin technique; there's
no better teacher than having to keep up with the pedals on a downhill (just use a front
brake if you're just learning).

Stealthman_1

After a winter of spin classes using little resistance following a crash last fall, it sounds to me like you need to up the resistance. The other things mentioned here could all be true as well, but you should have minor resistance all the way around other wise you will out pedal the bike. Since you are on a trainer, starting out just over your regular pace you should really concentrate on pedaling circles, when you hit a true spin you should feel like your feet are floating on the pedals with just enough resistance to keep from getting wild. Concentrate on holding your upper body as still as possible, don't worry about speed, stop the 'rock'. This will be HARD at first, once you get used to the feeling of pulling up, concentrate on 'scraping the goo off your shoes' as you pedal from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock, then concentrate on 'kicking' from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock (when you're doing this right you will feel it big time in the muscle on the front of your shin). As mentioned above, pedaling with one foot is a good way to work on the circular motion, but another drill we do in spin class is to practice pedaling from 12 to 6, from 3 to 9, from 6 to 12 and from 9 to 3 (o'clock). Keep working and try not to get frustrated, you will be amazed at the progress you can make once you start to feel it.

NomadVW 

Rollers cured me. Or.. rather, rollers are curing me.

botto 

seems pretty obvious that you're not supple. as another poster suggested - buy some rollers.

MichaelW

Make sure your crank is roughly the correct length.
Use a pedal retention system.
Set your saddle height correctly.

I find it best to train for spinning with very little resistance in a low gear. I gradually wind up the revs from 80 and try to maintian the fasterst revs for about 1 min . After a while your legs will get used to moving quicker. Big/long legs may not be a suitable for fast cadence as smaller legs.
When training for high cadence you should not be working your heart and lungs to the max. You are training your legs so use gears to limit your work-rate.

GuitarWizard

Sorry chief, you have that a bit backwards....higher cadences usually bring about more of an aerobic effort, while lower cadences/gear mashing is typically more of an anaerobic effort.