I've fallen on my head with and without using a helmet. Maybe not exact circumstances, but I did notice the difference between cracked skull, blood pouring out, pulled out of the race and being rushed to the ER
versus cracked helmet head intact, dull headache. While I suspect you'll be quick to pick up on the 'not exact circumstances', no two crashes in either your or cyclintom's 'statistics' (the ones we've some to rely on here at least from a humorous standpoint :) ), questioning helmet use, can do any better.

It's called commonsense for all those naysayers, you two included.

Coupled with my real world experiences, the fact that I have and engineering degree(yep, not just you and tom!) and can do my own research, cycling safety included, also suggests I or anyone else not pay any attention to snake oil pedalling merchants, 'researchers' as they call themselves, with either no first hand experience of the matter, or questionable research at best, or worse, neither.

That's where you're sadly wrong again and don't realize it!

Amazing how you've conceded your 'helmets don't work' position to 'wear a helmet plus be also careful when you ride' when no one said 'all you need to do to be safe is wear a helmet'.

P.S. That list of bikes in your signature - real world or figments of your imagination like your 'research'?

If you have to convince anyone to wear a helmet, is is really worth the energy? What a staggering waste of time. I'd leave this in God's hands - and Mr. Darwin's : ).

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/8...leglass4tu.jpg

Die thread die!!!!! :lol:

That demonstrates your ability to comprehend perfectly.

By the way, on a ride one time a friend fell off and hit the back of his helmet. The part that sticks back so far. Nothing else struck. The helmet swiveled forward and the FOAM cut a long slice out of his scalp.

If I asked him if he'd prefer to repeat that accident with or without a helmet what do you suppose his answer would be?

It swiveled independantly of his head?

Looks like the helmet did it's job in spite of incorrect placement/fit. Scalp can be stitched back, will heal a lot more easily than cracked head! Supports the pro-helmet argument, cyclintom you're definitely coming around. Couple more posts and you'll crack(argument that is).

Now was this really a friend or did you do this to yourself - riding without properly fastened helmet and coming to the conclusion that helmets are useless :) :) :)

--Meaningless anecdotal evidence with a falsely assumed correlation (albeit somewhat acknowledged).

--Shifting the burden of proof: attempting to force me to prove that not buying/wearing a helmet (inaction) rather then proving that I should (action).

--Argumentum ad hominem: suggesting that I have no commonsense does not prove your point.
--Argumentum ad populum: appealing to popular belief (disguised as "commonsense") as if the majority cannot be wrong.
--Guilt By Association: Linking me with cyclintom neither disproves nor proves anyone's points.

--Argument From Authority: I am glad you have an engineering degree but that, by itself, does not qualify you to judge the effectiveness of cycling helmets. Additionally, simply being an expert would not necessarily make you argument valid- assertions need to be backed up. I would hope that during your education you would have taking a critical thinking course at some time and would be able to piece together a real argument to prove your point rather than relying on fallacies.

As a matter of course, I do not have an engineering degree and simply do not know if helmets work or not, I wear one because I have to and absolutely refuse to believe it will actually significantly help in most accidents. I also ardently refuse to believe in helmets based on (mostly) industry propaganda and bad arguments. I do believe helmets have their uses but believe that many of the zealots that proclaim helmets' virtues do more harm than good to cycling in general.

OK, I've been riding for the last 20 years including the mountain bike craze from start to finish.

I didn't have a lot of money to put into bicycles for a long time so I ended up with older stuff often that failed at inappropriate times. I crashed A LOT.

One thing I noticed. When I wore a helmet I often would hit my head. I don't know whether this was because the helmet makes your head heavier and your neck muscles aren't used to this (which is my guess) or whether you just don't worry about hitting your head when you're wearing a helmet (which would be suggested by the theory of risk compensation). Whatever, wearing a helmet = hitting head fairly often.

When I wasn't wearing a helmet I NEVER hit my head. And I crashed about as often both ways.

My suspicion is that God knew what he was doing when he designed the human body and it tends to protect the head when there isn't an inch and a half of crap hanging off of it.

In the crashes I never conciously worried about hitting my head or not so it wasn't a case as in motorcycle crashes which usually happen a lot slower (believe it or not) and you have time to think about how you're going to crash.

The point is that people who claim that their helmet saved them from head injuries may be missing the point that perhaps the helmet CAUSED the head to strike in the first place. I won't go any further than to suggest that.

I offer this service to most people who feel this way.....and it's free of charge as well.

I will take an aluminum baseball bat, and hit you in the head with it....both helmeted and not helmeted. And in a few different areas. You can then determine which hurts less. I won't exactly swing for the fences and try and knock your head off, but it'll be hard enough to notice.

So...whaddaya say.....you in?

Is this the best argument for helmet use you have, it's really pathetic that you have to make up a situation in which a helmet could possibly work. I am truly impressed, however, that you are significantly trained and skilled enough to determine the amount of force to apply to a helmet with a baseball bat in order to simulate a bike wreck- where did you learn this skill? And you offer this service for free? Shouldn't you be a carni or something?

I wore a flack vest in the army for years and I always thought that to avoid testing its resistance to bullets was the better option (ok, I was ordered to wear it). Bike helmets are the same way. They offer questionable protection that is better never tested.

When you can't attack the argument, attack the person (preferably not with a bat)?

Now I'm off to a ride (with a helmet).

blah, blah, blah...ad nauseam indeed!

Deconstruction ad absurdum of my argument by someone pretending to be advocatus diaboli, and has yet to offer something, anything.

Do sign up for GuitarWizard's experiment!

:) :)

Not 'people' cyclintom, just you. Said 'people' don't wear a helmet many sizes too large - shaped like a large mushroom so as to have it wedge between two trees as they ride. Only you.

Also recommend you sign up for GuitarWizard's ultimate test!

:) :) :)

Not really, but it's the most fun. Unfortunately nobody is willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Can't you have a discussion without wishing harm upon someone?

I have offered the status quo in lieu of change mostly benefiting business profits. Not all change is progress and simply following advertising disguised as science is just naive. I am not playing the devil's advocate, I honestly don't believe helmets help much and really believe their enthusiasts could spend their energies more effectively arguing for real safety changes. Helmets are the last hope for injury mitigation and should be treated as such. Only ~700 people (BHSI) a year die on bikes, most are kids (<15yo), and most are male. It seems that education, maturity, and caution are much more effective tools to prevent injuries by preventing crashes that cause injuries in the first place. Head injuries are a small percentage of annual cycling injuries but those are the only injuries a helmet only safety advocate fights against. I am simply arguing for a more holistic approach to safety advocacy and for people to quit making bike safety about helmets.

Now, I certainly cannot vouch for BSHI's statistics, however, they are a helmet advocacy group (obviously) yet their statistics don't make a strong case and often beg several questions in omitting several key points. Nowhere does it state how many people die of head injuries while wearing helmets nor do they break down head injury types that helmets would reduce. Given that the vast majority of head injuries are minor or insignificant (as a statistic, not to the recipient), therefore their claim that helmets could reduce head injuries by up to 85% is meaningless. Simply put, they seam to be preaching to the choir rather than making a convincing argument.

Interestingly enough, according to the BSHI, 24% of cyclists killed in 2003 were legally drunk. South Dakota just made it legal to drink and bike (or ride a horse).

I am tired of dealing with baseless assertions and threats of violence. Enjoy your thread, claim victory if you wish but know that it is hollow.

Wishing someone harm.....it's not like I'd beat anyones' skull in and kill 'em.....just a fairly mediocre blow to the head. Basically, not putting in much effort at all to swing the bat.

Ahhhh....when in doubt, break out the statistics. I love statistics. To me, when it comes time to crash, they mean absolutely nothing.

Well said, something that just doesn't get thru enough.

Statistics often present a feel good pseudo reality that offer the ignorant some comfort, else they would be forced to constantly remain dressed like the Michelin man. Now they revel in the 'knowledge' that bad things happen to only one in a thousand....just whistling past the graveyard :)

Luckily most get it! People(unless you want to call all of them idiots) do wear helmets while riding, seatbelts while driving, even use parachutes when skydiving, who would have thought? :)

....and a love glove when......

Here's the deal. You wear a helmet and let me hit you in the head with a baseball bat and then you can hit me in the head without a helmet on after.

Where can we meet and be sure to bring your lawyer who will verify that it was YOUR belief that the helmet would keep you from being killed.

rufvelo,

GLAD TO HEAR YOU ARE OK!!!

First off, this is your post/thread [as you started it] where you are basically telling us about your accident and situation. I respect your opinion and only wish you the best.

For those who come in and spout their beliefs and guidance and such, there needs to be another thread on helmet issues that they could have easily link here to bring awareness to helmet issues.
They started their own discussion within your thread. I have yet to seek a particular thread out, but I do believe in wearing helmets such as you.

I do not put my life in the helmet, as I know it is not the total solution, I think we all know that. There is not an "absolute factor" but we take the risk based on our wishes to pursue transportation on two wheels. Two feet or four wheels is a perceived safer mode and we know that. We choose two wheels, it's dangerous, but that is the adventures of life.

For those who wish to put all hopes in absolute safety through equipment… think of it like this – the equipment is safe, VERY SAFE but people are not.

I too came close to the edge. Oct2007 I had a major “get off” at somewhere between 65-75mph in the dirt. I broke my C1. In the hospital I had doctors swarming me and grilling me about my accident. I told them I did this to myself, I can not be mad at the motorcycle or even the man-cut road in the middle flat dry-lake bed, even though the cut-down road [knee deep] did not make any sense, it’s still my fault. PERIOD. But the doctors treated me with this “disrespect” as though I have disrespect for life. BUT, not funny thing is, that same day there where about four other incidents where people came in with broken necks due to accidents. Hey, California is rough! But, for those people, they have real reasons to be mad as their situation was done to them; someone else hit them. They can be mad and place blame. I’m lucky, I can only blame me. I cannot blame my equipment or the bike. The bike was only doing what I told it [controlled] it to do. If it was up to the bike, it was just be sitting in the garage on the kickstand looking all pretty.
The doctors continually asked me if I could, would I ride motorcycles again. I said, if the doctor clears me, I would be back on the bike…. JUST LIKE THOSE FOUR OTHERS who also came in with my same type of injury. They too will purse the automobile upon release from the hospital. I even think they will leave the hospital the very same way they came to the hospital, via vehicle, the very same thing that hurt them… as perceived by doctors… It’s not the cars that hurt those people… it was people, who just happen to be driving cars. That’s what we do…

We cyclist choose to put ourselves at risk. We cannot put blame or 100% faith in helmets, nor can we blame automobile drivers – they, [us] when driving is the moral majority. When cycling, we are the minority. Yet we seek the adventure of life. No matter if we fall victim of avalanche or commuter cycling accident, these are the risks involved and usually simply overlooked until something happens.

Remind yourself every morning… there are natural risks and human risks. I personally, more easily accept the natural risk. But there is risk, most ignor it. You must embrace it and then push forward, but now with awareness.

Sorry rufvelo as I too placed my thoughts and opinions within your thread. I was simply wishing to reinforce your thought that yes, helmets are good.

For kicks click it, if you don't think my story is based on my reality...

Uh, hey GCRad, um... This thread has been dead almost three years. Let it stay dead.

Thanks for sharing and glad you're OK too.

Can't believe it has been 3 yrs since this one! That same steel Cinelli has another 10K miles on it (it's not the only bike I ride BTW), but still carries the classic top tube handlebar ding that I've crudely covered with automotive spray.

look everyone! it's a grave digger!

at least s/he knows how to use the search engine.

still an idiot, but a thorough one.

People who wear or don't wear helmets may die, but helmet threads are worse than zombies...