Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Skin Cancer

Old 04-25-06, 01:44 PM
  #26  
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I haven't followed these forums for awhile but I do remember Anthony G's posts from previous months/years. Basically anything he posts that has to do with medicine (his favorite topic) I make a point of NOT reading. Unfortunately I glanced at his post this time (not his links though).

Everything he posts is related to some medical conspiracy and his anti-science views.

More saturated fat and no vegetable oils to prevent skin cancer takes the cake.

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Old 04-25-06, 01:50 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
Anthony, everything in that post ^^^ is wrong and fabricated. Next, you'll be telling us the benefits of smoking.
The highest incidence of skin cancers are in areas of US with high UV index. The more you expose your skin to UV, the higher your chance of triggering melanoma. A "natural tan" will not protect you, there is no differnce between 'natural' tanning and sunbed tanning , they are both the same wavelength of UV light.

The reason why there is a increased incidence of cancer among sunscreen users is because sunscreen users do not use the products properly, and they are exposed to more UV because of behaviour like tanning on a beach or on a tanning bed. If you tan, this is skin response to UV damage. UV damages DNA in skin cells and will lead to melanoma, or at the very least, skin that looks like an old catcher's mitt at 40.

Sunscreens need to be applied continuously, not just once before a long ride, and the opaque sunscreens with titanium oxide are the best.
+1. My dermatologist also advises using sunscreens from April through Sep, and ones that also contain Parsol 1389, and keeping out of mid-day sun. Sunscreens are only effective for about 2 hrs so if you are on a long ride take it with you and re-apply. Non-fatal cancers are no fun.
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Old 04-25-06, 01:55 PM
  #28  
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The uv absorption of sunscreen at the higher pdf levels is very good but anything that is not really greasy tends to sweat off. I would certainly reapply during a six hour period. Covering up is obviously better but not real practical to a cyclist that is working hard. I guess it is a risk management issue...if you don't cycle then maybe cardivascular disease will kill you before the melanoma that you avoided. I popped off in my first post and am very sorry for that, but AG's drivel is dangerous. Melanoma can be beat but you have to take an interest in preventing it and catching it before it is too late.
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Old 04-25-06, 02:00 PM
  #29  
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alternative medicine and medical conspiracy theory is fine and fun to play around with until the doctor tells you the test came back as positive for skin cancer. At that instant you get real serious and find yourself an expert who has dedicated his/her life to your particular illness.

Enough of the parlor games.

What? I’m giving my life to some dope who wrote an article on the internet advising me to eat more oils?

Are you crazy?

Ben knows Campy inside and out, when I have a Campy question I go to Ben. For my skin I go to Dr. Shultz. I trust him with my life.
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Old 04-25-06, 03:31 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
Look, I'm a cancer researcher and I can quote all the science you want, but this would be pointless because you clearly don't understand it. Maybe you should concede that there are qualified people that are focused just on this problem for most of their lives. Don't dare take an ignorant cavalier attitude about "lethal" versus "non-lethal" cancers, one can easily become the other.

Coconut oil is the worst thing to use in the sun, it cools the skin and provides no UV protection, it actually leads to faster and more severe burning and UV damage. I'm amazed at how countries spend billions of research dollarswith good conclusions, yet millions of morons still smoke and lie in the sun all day.

At 41, you are at a low risk age for melanoma, but if you don't smarten up, 50-60 could be a big problem.
If your a cancer researcher then you should have known better.

I'm a big advocate of science actualy. Unfortunately "Science" is being abused by those who call themselves "Scientists" and believers of science.

I have a "theory" that Science as currently practised is simply the dominant religion of the western world at this point in time. Its simply replaced religion and fulfills all the roles that religion once did.

Don't believe me? Tell me, what is the "Scientific method" and who did the scientific trial that proves it works?

This isn't the "scientific method" but one of the most IMPORTANT principles of science is that science would be open to free and fearless critical review. Science would openly admit to its mistakes and shortcommings and this just hasn't happened.

Science isn't science just because a "Scientist" say's it is.

DocRay realy should know better and I'm sure he understands the validity of my point of view but he's caught in a trap of possibly his own making. DocRay see's there are important "Public Health" considerations here and he needs to stay "ON MESSAGE". The last thing that's needed is to allow any doubt about "Science" to take hold. The publics "FAITH" in "SCIENCE" must be maintained at any cost and scientific principles just go out the window in such circumstances.

Anyway its realy a conspiricy of PRIDE. We are all too proud to admit our mistakes and admiting to ones mistakes is a CRITICAL scientific principle.

Another link from WD_40 to read.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 04-25-06, 04:20 PM
  #31  
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AthonyG,

Good lord.... you're insane. Seek help, man.

Originally Posted by AnthonyG
I have a "theory" that Science as currently practised is simply the dominant religion of the western world at this point in time. Its simply replaced religion and fulfills all the roles that religion once did.

Don't believe me? Tell me, what is the "Scientific method" and who did the scientific trial that proves it works?
How do we know the scientific method works? We've eradicated polio, smallpox, and countless other diseases. We've all but cured historically fatal diseases like childhood leukemia. We've created the computer you're typing on, invented the internet, and explored other planets.

What more proof do you need that science works?

As far as it being a religion, consider that science is founded upon skepticism, while religions universally discourage skepticism. Think about it. There need be no faith at all in science. You can do the same experiment anyone else has ever done, and get the same result they published. Experiment is the ultimate arbiter of scientific merit, and anyone can explore it.

This isn't the "scientific method" but one of the most IMPORTANT principles of science is that science would be open to free and fearless critical review. Science would openly admit to its mistakes and shortcommings and this just hasn't happened.
There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 scientific journals published all over the world. Every single one is crammed, cover-to-cover, with nothing but free and fearless critical review, and admission of mistakes and shortcomings. Have you ever read a scientific journal? Have you ever known a scientist who was working to publish something? Have you ever witnesses the incredibly fierce peer review process that scientists subject themselves to?

Science isn't science just because a "Scientist" say's it is.
I see you're as much a wordsmith as you are a critical thinker, eh?

The publics "FAITH" in "SCIENCE" must be maintained at any cost and scientific principles just go out the window in such circumstances.
There is no faith in science. At least, not by people who know anything about science. What you're attempting to do is set up a strawman argument, an artifical premise which you then attack. To an uneducated reader, your conclusions about the strawman may seem to apply to reality as well, when, in truth, your conclusions about the strawman are irrelevant.

Anyway its realy a conspiricy of PRIDE. We are all too proud to admit our mistakes and admiting to ones mistakes is a CRITICAL scientific principle.
Scientists admit mistakes every day. You obviously don't know any science, or any scientists. You also obviously have some debilitating mental illness.

- Warren
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Old 04-25-06, 04:23 PM
  #32  
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Anthony G's comments are absolutely ridiculous and quite honestly dangerous. His "science" is based upon supposition and extrapolation of data from obscure, small-scale studies funded by meat, dairy, and egg producers. The "doctor" that wrote the articles is a PhD, I may want to listen to her wax philosophically on the nature of man, but what she has to say on the science of saturated vs. unsaturated fats and the fact that cholesterol is good for you is of no interest to me. The website and the organization is funded by individual donors, who by their own admission, is made up primarily of people who have some financial interest in seeing the BS contained on the site be accepted as fact. The whole thing is a total crock of crap.
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Old 04-25-06, 04:24 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG
I have a "theory" that Science as currently practised is simply the dominant religion of the western world at this point in time. Its simply replaced religion and fulfills all the roles that religion once did.
Your full of 5hit right there. The dominant religion in the West is Capitalism and the U.S. is leading the pack. Simply plop Capitalism where you used Science and your statement makes a lot more sense.

...now off to your rock...I'm going to slather up in this sunscreen. That and my shaved arse makes me a dead sexy.
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Old 04-25-06, 04:32 PM
  #34  
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OK I've just attacked everyone's pride in "Science" so its only fair that you should return the favor.

Anyone care to elaborate on what the "Scientific Method" is and who conducted the scientific trial that proves it works?

The examples of technology and drugs/vaccines around us doesn't nessecarily have anything to do with science. Its actualy called "Research and Development". R&D can be done using science or it can be done without using science. Just because your doing R&D doesn't mean your doing science.

Yes some science does get done in this world but quite often when lots of money is involved scientific principles get left on the shelf.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 04-25-06, 04:43 PM
  #35  
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So, are you attacking science itself, or the politicians who decide where money gets spent on R&D? Are you not aware that the two are not the same?

And, while you're at it, can you give me some concrete examples of successful R&D endeavors that did not involve scientific methodology?

- Warren
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Old 04-25-06, 05:24 PM
  #36  
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Please AG, get lots and lots of uv. Do not use sunscreen.
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Old 04-25-06, 06:04 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by chroot
So, are you attacking science itself, or the politicians who decide where money gets spent on R&D? Are you not aware that the two are not the same?

And, while you're at it, can you give me some concrete examples of successful R&D endeavors that did not involve scientific methodology?

- Warren
No I'm here to defend true scientific principles. The problem is that many who claim alegience to scientific principles are the principle problem.

R&D and Science are NOT the same thing. Science is R&D performed using the scientific method so science can always considered to be R&D but R&D doesn't have to be done using the scientific method so the reverse isn't nessecarily/usualy true.

Now the issue comes down to the deffinition of "Science". I've set a challenge MANY times for you "science" types to let us in on your deffinition by only silence so far and that's realy the problem.

Any takers?

R&D without science?

EASY! THE WHEEL!

To fsor, Don't worry, I'm not ever going to use sunscreen again and I get safe amounts of UV outside the danger times. Now this is the funny thing. I have repeatedly stated that I AVOID mid-day summer sun, I don't go sunbaking and I would cover up in such situations. Covering up is better than sunscreen so why the issue?

Because its rather an "extreme" aproach and it doesn't work from a "Public Health" point of view because no one would follow it. Thats the problem so it works better to promote the use of sunscreen products in the mistaken belief that its the best option and since its important to stay "ON MESSAGE" in such situations and alternative view is looked down upon rather sternly.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 04-25-06, 06:42 PM
  #38  
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I wasn't aware the wheel was invented as a result of a concerted R&D effort. Learn somethin' new every day, eh?

The definition of science is: inquiry which follows scientific methodology. There's really nothing more to it than that.

Most of your posts are truly hilarious, so keep 'em coming.

- Warren
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Old 04-25-06, 07:16 PM
  #39  
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I'm a redheaded, blue eyed, freckled as can be 25 year old who grew up in Phoenix. If you're unaware of the climate, there's a lot of sun with regular summer highs reaching 110-115+F (43-46+C). I've had a lot of sun burns in my life. I've burned bad enough to blister on my feet, shoulders, neck, arms, and ears a few different times. This, as those crazy scientists say, puts me at a big risk for cancer. From my personal experience, sun screen works when applied and reapplied correctly. I find Coppertone Sport with an spf 30+ works well if reapplied every 2-3 hours (more so if you're in the water). Regardless of whether or not it prevents cancer, it keeps me from getting burned when I use it right. If there is some grand conspiracy by the sun screen companies I'm totally buying into it and will continue to do so everytime I'm in the sun, because I hate getting a sun burn. While I've never tired coconut oil, I can't imagine it would treat my pale a$$ too well.

On a side note, did anyone ever think that maybe the coconut oil producers are conspiring to get people to switch from sun screen in an attempt to sell more coconut oil? Yeah... let that mill around for a while.
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Old 04-25-06, 09:06 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by chroot
I wasn't aware the wheel was invented as a result of a concerted R&D effort. Learn somethin' new every day, eh?

The definition of science is: inquiry which follows scientific methodology. There's really nothing more to it than that.

Most of your posts are truly hilarious, so keep 'em coming.

- Warren
OK that's a start but keep going. What's the "scientific methodology"?

Regards, Anthony
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Old 04-25-06, 09:26 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by AndrewP
+1. My dermatologist also advises using sunscreens from April through Sep, and ones that also contain Parsol 1389, and keeping out of mid-day sun. Sunscreens are only effective for about 2 hrs so if you are on a long ride take it with you and re-apply. Non-fatal cancers are no fun.
Sunscreen AND cover up as much as possible. Even on a partly cloudy day you'll see me with a wide brimmed hat at work. On sunny days it's an even wider hat. I can't avoid mid-day sun at work, but I ride in the early morning and even then I've gotten burned when I didn't take any sunscreen. Unfortunantley the visor on my helmet is practically useless for blocking the sun so I am probably going to go with a cap underneath to help block the sun and with a bandana tucked under the back of my helmet in the summer.
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Old 04-25-06, 09:29 PM
  #42  
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Scientific methodology essentially involves two steps: (1) development of a theory and (2) the use of empirical evidence to support or falsify the theory.

A tacit assumption is that theories which conflict with evidence (i.e., eating saturated fats prevents skin cancer, vegetable oils make you get skin cancer) are abandoned.

If you'd like to read more about the philsophical underpinnings of science, read Karl Popper's work. Most modern scientists adhere to an essentially Popplerian philosophy, whether explicitly acknowledged or not. If you're not into such heavy reading, try Sagan's "Demon Haunted World."

- Warren
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Old 04-25-06, 09:49 PM
  #43  
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Aparantly (slowly &gradualy)building up a natural tan without sunscreen is the best defense along with skin moisturizer.

Dermatolagist would be great, except around here it's usualy a 4 month wait to get in, even if it's something fairly important.
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Old 04-25-06, 09:56 PM
  #44  
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Sites and articles to chew on:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C1A9659C8B63
http://www.ynhh.org/healthlink/cancer/cancer_8_02.html
http://www.skincancer.org/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12081374/
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Old 04-25-06, 10:07 PM
  #45  
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The stuff that's being thrown around in this thread is just too much...

UV light causes formation of unusual dimers (via formation of cyclobutane) between adjacent thymidine bases in the genetic code or DNA. When cells are dividing, DNA needs to be replicated. When replicating DNA encounters one or many of these unusual dimers, it makes mistakes. In cells that are continually dividing (like the basal cells in the stratum basale or bottom layer of the skin), enough mistakes can build up and lead to a cancerous cell. Thus a mechanism by which basal cell carcinoma is formed. There are 50 years of scientific methodology that back this up, although none of it has been "proven." Science never proves anything...
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Old 04-25-06, 10:09 PM
  #46  
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The Aussie is right and the Aussie is wrong.
I use sunblock and keep a little color on my skin in the summer. I believe--and Stanford U. studies in the late 80's back it up--that a little color on the outside of the skin (the already dead layer) provides shade for the live layers below.
Three ways I'm not going to die if I have anything to do with it is cancer, AIDS and gunshot wound.
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Old 04-25-06, 11:08 PM
  #47  
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Here you go Anthony Introduction to Scientific Method: http://ms.kmsd.edu/~science6/scimeth.htm It's a sixth grade definition, should be up to your level.
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Old 04-26-06, 03:20 AM
  #48  
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AnthonyG -

Although your posts are wildly off base, I find them entertaining so keep going. But please, PLEASE - "your" is possessive, and "you're" is the contraction for "you are." Thank you.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39032
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Old 04-26-06, 03:57 AM
  #49  
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So other than bashing AnthonyG

Anyone have any good suggestions??
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Old 04-26-06, 04:06 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by ovoleg
So other than bashing AnthonyG

Anyone have any good suggestions??
To avoid skin cancer, avoid sun exposure. If you can't avoid sun exposure, cover up and use a good quality sunscreen. If you have a past history of over-exposure to the sun, have your skin checked periodically by someone qualified to know what they are looking for.

Failing that "live fast, die young and leave a good-looking corpse"
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