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I can understand some cagers...

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

I can understand some cagers...

Old 05-18-06, 09:29 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
99% of cagers are probably completely unjustified in their bad behavior on the road (when they do exhibit bad manners). However, I can sympathize with a certain percentage of them. So today I was driving over to where I was going to do a hill climb TT. The roads were narrow and there wasn't much of a shoulder in certain parts. Tons of cyclists were out on the roads. Being one myself, I was extra cautious while driving. Most of the riders were super cool and made an effort to move over as much as they could and then wave me by to indicate there was no oncomming traffic. I really appreciated that given how the many switchbacks made it difficult to pass the cyclists because I couldn't see if there was oncoming traffic. One woman however really got my dander up. She was riding in the middle of the road! I mean right smack in the middle and made no effort to move over at all. She knew she had cars behind her but didn't move over. She kept riding right down the middle. A bunch of us were stuck behind her for about 1/2 mile. when people ride sightly over the white line, I can understand that since there's often debris there. But sitting in the middle seems like not a very nice thing to do. I didn't say or do anything, but just felt frustrated since that sort of behavior can give cyclists a bad name to cagers who will get mad and do something stupid. end of rant.
There are some folks on here who seem to think that cyclists have every right to hold up traffic as long as they please. I however do not think they have this right and I would be livid if I got stuck behind that woman.
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Old 05-18-06, 09:29 AM
  #27  
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Maybe I just shake my head because after 100K road bicycle miles without a car incident (much of it in one of the more congested traffic areas of the US) I think I've learned a few things about how not to piss off motorists. And I don't. So when I read arrogant notions about how it's a cyclist's perogative to decide when 'somebody can pass me' - well, you'll learn how far that goes - and unfortunately it may be the hard way. Here's a clue: on the blind curve if a motorist starts coming your way because they're forced over by some unexpected large vehicle coming in the opposite direction - well if that threatens you that means you were either too far out in the road in the first place, or you should ride your stupid bicycle into the weeds or ditch, that being better than being hit by a 4000 lb. vehicle. Of course this misses the larger point - that if a road is sufficiently busy and narrow to preclude the safe passage of cars AND bicycles THEN WHY ARE YOU ON IT IN THE FIRST PLACE??

Patentcad's #1 Rule of Route Planning - choose the roads with the least traffic and the best shoulders/bicycle clearance. Period. I live in a semi-rural area - very quiet generally speaking - and there are several roads up here that at first glance appear to be bicycle friendly - that you won't EVER catch me riding on if I have a choice. And I generally do.

By the way a friend of mine was CLIPPED BY A CHEVY SUBURBAN REARVIEW MIRROR on just one of those roads I NEVER ride on. That's what I'm talking about. Of course I KNOW what I'm talking about. And not everyone here seems to.

Hey, listen and learn or flame me (as usual). Whatever. And you can do everything right and STILL get clipped. But at least learn how to lower the odds.
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Old 05-18-06, 09:36 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Maybe I just shake my head because after 100K road bicycle miles without a car incident (much of it in one of the more congested traffic areas of the US) I think I've learned a few things about how not to piss off motorists. And I don't. So when I read arrogant notions about how it's a cyclist's perogative to decide when 'somebody can pass me' - well, you'll learn how far that goes - and unfortunately it may be the hard way. Here's a clue: on the blind curve if a motorist starts coming your way because they're forced over by some unexpected large vehicle coming in the opposite direction - well if that threatens you that means you were either too far out in the road in the first place, or you should ride your stupid bicycle into the weeds or ditch, that being better than being hit by a 4000 lb. vehicle. Of course this misses the larger point - that if a road is sufficiently busy and narrow to preclude the safe passage of cars AND bicycles THEN WHY ARE YOU ON IT IN THE FIRST PLACE??

Patentcad's #1 Rule of Route Planning - choose the roads with the least traffic and the best shoulders/bicycle clearance. Period. I live in a semi-rural area - very quiet generally speaking - and there are several roads up here that at first glance appear to be bicycle friendly - that you won't EVER catch me riding on if I have a choice. And I generally do.

By the way a friend of mine was CLIPPED BY A CHEVY SUBURBAN REARVIEW MIRROR on just one of those roads I NEVER ride on. That's what I'm talking about. Of course I KNOW what I'm talking about. And not everyone here seems to.

Hey, listen and learn or flame me (as usual). Whatever. And you can do everything right and STILL get clipped. But at least learn how to lower the odds.
+1. I basically said the same thing in an earlier post and I got my ass handed to me. HAHA!!
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Old 05-18-06, 09:41 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Miller2
+1. I basically said the same thing in an earlier post and I got my ass handed to me. HAHA!!
Oh well. At least there's ONE other person here who's not a Road Idiot. There MUST be a few others. Surely.

Again, I watch out for my own ass. Whether you weenies want to keep yours in one piece - well, that is your business. I really hope you don't have to learn how stupid some of these attitudes are in an Emergency Room or God forbid a morgue.
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Old 05-18-06, 09:59 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
........Of course this misses the larger point - that if a road is sufficiently busy and narrow to preclude the safe passage of cars AND bicycles THEN WHY ARE YOU ON IT IN THE FIRST PLACE??........
Because that's the roads we have here. We all have to deal with it, cagers and cyclists alike. Now if you want to buy me a 2006 full-sized Toyota Tundra crewcab 4x4 and pay all expenses for the life of the vehicle I may consider riding less on roads that don't please you.

Originally Posted by patentcad
Hey, listen and learn or flame me (as usual). Whatever. And you can do everything right and STILL get clipped. But at least learn how to lower the odds.
You greatly lower the odds of getting clipped by taking the lane.
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Old 05-18-06, 10:04 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
99% of cagers are probably completely unjustified in their bad behavior on the road (when they do exhibit bad manners). However, I can sympathize with a certain percentage of them. So today I was driving over to where I was going to do a hill climb TT. The roads were narrow and there wasn't much of a shoulder in certain parts. Tons of cyclists were out on the roads. Being one myself, I was extra cautious while driving. Most of the riders were super cool and made an effort to move over as much as they could and then wave me by to indicate there was no oncomming traffic. I really appreciated that given how the many switchbacks made it difficult to pass the cyclists because I couldn't see if there was oncoming traffic. One woman however really got my dander up. She was riding in the middle of the road! I mean right smack in the middle and made no effort to move over at all. She knew she had cars behind her but didn't move over. She kept riding right down the middle. A bunch of us were stuck behind her for about 1/2 mile. when people ride sightly over the white line, I can understand that since there's often debris there. But sitting in the middle seems like not a very nice thing to do. I didn't say or do anything, but just felt frustrated since that sort of behavior can give cyclists a bad name to cagers who will get mad and do something stupid. end of rant.
There's a hill I do most mornings on my way to work. It's narrow - one lane each way - and it's got a couple of switchbacks, though it's not very long. If there are any cars turning right behind me, I will usually stop and wait for them. No sense holding them up, as there is no room to pass.

Once I go, though, I go. I ride right up the middle of the road. There's just no room on that hill for a driver who believes that pushing his way past me will make his life better. It's just safer for me to 'take the lane' then have a driver try to squeeze by. And having a couple of cars behind me is quite motivating. But it's not a long hill (quarter of a mile, if that).

Going down the hill I just take the lane and usually go faster than the cars do. I don't, however, try to squeeze around them just because they're holding me up.

So I get where you're coming from. But that woman probably believed that what she was doing was safer for her. And you have to wait, just as you'd have to wait for a tractor or another slow moving vehicle. It's frustrating, but you'd want the same consideration in that situation.
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Old 05-18-06, 10:08 AM
  #32  
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>>Because that's the roads we have here. We all have to deal with it, cagers and cyclists alike. Now if you want to buy me a 2006 full-sized Toyota Tundra crewcab 4x4 and pay all expenses for the life of the vehicle I may consider riding less on roads that don't please you<<

That please ME? This is about keeping YOUR ass out of the grass. I'm responsible for mine.

You have to ride in the manner that you see fit. But this idea some people here seem to have that you can control what a 2+ ton vehicle does - that's entirely up to them. Seems like a dangerous notion to me. The way I see it that entity is under the control of the person driving it and God. Not me.

And maybe that's why I'm still here after 17 years of daily riding. Or maybe I've been lucky. Or most likely, a combination of both.
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Old 05-18-06, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
>>Because that's the roads we have here. We all have to deal with it, cagers and cyclists alike. Now if you want to buy me a 2006 full-sized Toyota Tundra crewcab 4x4 and pay all expenses for the life of the vehicle I may consider riding less on roads that don't please you<<

That please ME? This is about keeping YOUR ass out of the grass. I'm responsible for mine.

You have to ride in the manner that you see fit. But this idea some people here seem to have that you can control what a 2+ ton vehicle does - that's entirely up to them. Seems like a dangerous notion to me. The way I see it that entity is under the control of the person driving it and God. Not me.

And maybe that's why I'm still here after 17 years of daily riding. Or maybe I've been lucky. Or most likely, a combination of both.
If some of the Chicken Little advice being thrown around on this thread were followed, there would be no bicycles in this area of the state with the exception of the cities.
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Old 05-18-06, 10:56 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by azwhelan
Some of the attitudes expressed here are exactly why motorists hate cyclist. If we expect them to share the road we should make the same effort. I doubt everyone here doesn't drive a car as well at some point and to get stuck behind someone who isn't even making an effort to help the flow of traffic is just rude.
Yes, sharing the road goes both ways, but guess who needs more room for safety? The 20 lb (or more) bike or the cars/SUVs weighing more than 2 tons and safety accoutrements galore?
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Old 05-18-06, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CommuterRun
If some of the Chicken Little advice being thrown around on this thread were followed, there would be no bicycles in this area of the state with the exception of the cities.
After riding in FL for a week ten years ago I'd say the fact that I survived the experience is a minor miracle. But the weather WAS very nice.
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Old 05-18-06, 11:02 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Patentcad's #1 Rule of Route Planning - choose the roads with the least traffic and the best shoulders/bicycle clearance. Period. I live in a semi-rural area - very quiet generally speaking - and there are several roads up here that at first glance appear to be bicycle friendly - that you won't EVER catch me riding on if I have a choice. And I generally do.
Easy for you to say because you live in a rural area. Go into any urban city, and the spotty coverage of bike lanes/paths/routes or even wide-enough shoulders or wider lanes will have you riding for 1 mile or so, and then having to take the lane because the lane is just too small for a bike and a car to fit.

And, don't tell me that I have no right to be on those roads, because legally, I do.
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Old 05-18-06, 11:15 AM
  #37  
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Its the highschoolers in my area that you have to watch for. Cagers? I don't know what you'd call em, lets face it the average person is usually decent behind the wheel but many aren't. I've had bottles thrown at me, gotten the bird, call you everything in the book and usually its just because I happen to be there sharing a country two lane paved road outside the suburbs. Even when I ran in the country, I'd have drivers go out of there way to nail me with something. Its the same with the daily commute, some drive safely and some race and cause problems for everyone. Its the motorcyclists that are scary they get on the less used roads and fly by me at 80 something. Crazy.

On my ride last night, I was coming down a long hill only to find a couple of highschool boys that were partying and had rolled their car about one minute before I got there. The car was flat and upside down in a ditch with the boys scratching there heads beside it.......wondering how they got there? (grin)


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Old 05-18-06, 11:18 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
After riding in FL for a week ten years ago I'd say the fact that I survived the experience is a minor miracle. But the weather WAS very nice.
That's fine, but what part of the state were you in? There's a night and day difference between north Florida and south Florida, south Florida having much more tourons. These are the folks who cause the most difficulties.
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Old 05-18-06, 11:46 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Cromulent
There's a hill I do most mornings on my way to work. It's narrow - one lane each way - and it's got a couple of switchbacks, though it's not very long. If there are any cars turning right behind me, I will usually stop and wait for them. No sense holding them up, as there is no room to pass.

Once I go, though, I go. I ride right up the middle of the road. There's just no room on that hill for a driver who believes that pushing his way past me will make his life better. It's just safer for me to 'take the lane' then have a driver try to squeeze by. And having a couple of cars behind me is quite motivating. But it's not a long hill (quarter of a mile, if that).

Going down the hill I just take the lane and usually go faster than the cars do. I don't, however, try to squeeze around them just because they're holding me up.

So I get where you're coming from. But that woman probably believed that what she was doing was safer for her. And you have to wait, just as you'd have to wait for a tractor or another slow moving vehicle. It's frustrating, but you'd want the same consideration in that situation.
Absolutely the wrong attitude. I dont care how many cyclists think the road is theirs...it isnt. Roads were built for cars and bikes are simply tolerated guests. The 200lb cyclist needs to get out of the way of the 2 ton vehicle.
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Old 05-18-06, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller2
Absolutely the wrong attitude. I dont care how many cyclists think the road is theirs...it isnt. Roads were built for cars and bikes are simply tolerated guests. The 200lb cyclist needs to get out of the way of the 2 ton vehicle.
Bikes are not tolerated guests. We have a legal right to the road. Of course there's right, and dead right, and I'd much rather be the former. But on this stretch of road there is no room. As a vehicle, I have the legal right to be on the road, riding as far to the right as is safe for me. What is safe for me is up to me to decide. On this hill it is not safe to hug the curb. I've tried that, and cars tried to pass, hesitated, and squeezed through. Not safe for me. I don't crawl up this hill at 5 mph. I hit it. Once it is safe for me to move over again, I do.

If I inconvenience a driver for a few seconds, and they get upset, that's their problem. In most other situations I stay to the right enough for drivers to get through easily and me to be safe.

Good lord, I'm turning into the Helmet Head of the Roadie forum. j/k HH.
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Old 05-18-06, 12:12 PM
  #41  
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It's situational... some times you don't want to risk letting a car by because the road conditions won't give you anywhere to bail out to... some times the roads are fine and you can ride on the shoulder... other times not...

The only time cyclists irritate me is when there is a perfectly good shoulder to ride on that's really clean and you can see it is.. and they still take the whole lane. I personally ride on the line, a compromise... when debris comes up, I do a quick over the shoulder check and get over to go around it... when the median looks clean I ride there... but I never stop on my ride to let cars by... at least not yet... I guess if I was riding in the shoulder and a car was passing me and something was right ahead of me in the shoulder, I couldn't swerve into the lane in front of the already passing car... i'd slow down and wait for it to get by me then get into the lane.

The worst of the worst though is when you're ridin gin the lane, even to the right... and there's a sidewalk on the same side fo the road... many the cars get pissed don't they? That's when they start squeezing by giving no space... and to think it's the same bastards that would glare and ***** when you ride by them and their kids on the sidewalk while they'r edoing their afterwork walk... but they don't think about that because they're not there, you're pissing them off either way... and no you shouldn't ride on sidewalks!

We have to obey laws... we ARE entitled to use the road as we feel is safest. Some people feel giving space for cars is safest, others feel taking the lane is safest... the latter is more likely to piss off other cars... the former is more likely to piss off riders (who get buzzed)...

oh well

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Old 05-18-06, 12:21 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Cromulent
Bikes are not tolerated guests. We have a legal right to the road. Of course there's right, and dead right, and I'd much rather be the former. But on this stretch of road there is no room. As a vehicle, I have the legal right to be on the road, riding as far to the right as is safe for me. What is safe for me is up to me to decide. On this hill it is not safe to hug the curb. I've tried that, and cars tried to pass, hesitated, and squeezed through. Not safe for me. I don't crawl up this hill at 5 mph. I hit it. Once it is safe for me to move over again, I do.

If I inconvenience a driver for a few seconds, and they get upset, that's their problem. In most other situations I stay to the right enough for drivers to get through easily and me to be safe.

Good lord, I'm turning into the Helmet Head of the Roadie forum. j/k HH.
Ah yes the legal right to do something. This is almost always the what is said when folks want to have things their way. Yea I know we have a legal right to be there but that doesnt give us the right to be obstinate. We as cyclists are lower on the food chain than an SUV. We should understand that and not be so pig headed as not to give way. That is the point being missed in almost all these threads.

If this road is a dicey to ride on as you say it is perhaps you should pick another road. If you cant safetly ride on or near the shoulder then it most likely isnt safe. Again I see the "damn it all to hell I have the right to be here attitude" showing up and being the reason you ride that road whether it is safe or not.

Having thel egal right to be somewhere does not also give you the right to inconvenience someone else. If you cant ride there safetly without holding up traffic then you shouldnt be there.
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Old 05-18-06, 12:31 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Miller2
Having thel egal right to be somewhere does not also give you the right to inconvenience someone else. If you cant ride there safetly without holding up traffic then you shouldnt be there.
Yeah, well, tell that to the car-free folks at the living car free forum, and see how long your argument holds up...

If the law says I can take the full lane if I feel it's safest to do so, then I have every right to inconvenience someone else in that respect. I'll move over when I feel it's safe to do so.

Doesn't a car that needs to turn left without a turn lane inconvenience everyone behind him? Yet, if it's legal to turn left there, he's gonna do it.
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Old 05-18-06, 12:33 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 0-20 in 5 Sec
Yeah, well, tell that to the car-free folks at the living car free forum, and see how long your argument holds up...

If the law says I can take the full lane if I feel it's safest to do so, then I have every right to inconvenience someone else in that respect. I'll move over when I feel it's safe to do so.

Well some member from MN said the same thing. So I looked up his state laws on cycling and it clearly stated that cyclists were NOT TO IMPEDE TRAFFIC. Riding in the lane and stacking up cars behind you is impeding traffic. I'd lay odds that in any state if a cop drove by and saw this he would quickly issue you the hell out of the lane.

Once again showing the obstinate attitudes that cause drivers to dislike us. You just keep adding fuel to their fire...
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Old 05-18-06, 12:35 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Miller2
Ah yes the legal right to do something. This is almost always the what is said when folks want to have things their way. Yea I know we have a legal right to be there but that doesnt give us the right to be obstinate. We as cyclists are lower on the food chain than an SUV. We should understand that and not be so pig headed as not to give way. That is the point being missed in almost all these threads.

If this road is a dicey to ride on as you say it is perhaps you should pick another road. If you cant safetly ride on or near the shoulder then it most likely isnt safe. Again I see the "damn it all to hell I have the right to be here attitude" showing up and being the reason you ride that road whether it is safe or not.

Having thel egal right to be somewhere does not also give you the right to inconvenience someone else. If you cant ride there safetly without holding up traffic then you shouldnt be there.
I get where your coming from. I do. And usually, normally, and with very few exceptions, I like to share the road. I like staying out of the way of cars. I appreciate them staying out of my way. I did say that there is a difference between being right and dead right. I even stated that I do let cars go ahead of me before I start of the hill because I don't want to hold everyone up.

But I don't want to pick another road. I like this hill a lot. It's short, kind of steep, has switchbacks, and I love charging up it. In this case, cars need to wait for me. It's only thirty seconds. All they have to do is slow down from 25 to 16. 18 if I'm feeling good. And I think that's okay.

Cars and SUVs are bigger than us. True dat. But if I was a tractor, they'd have to wait. Just 'cause we're tiny doesn't give anyone the right to push past us when using some patience would be better for everyone.
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Old 05-18-06, 12:39 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Cromulent
I get where your coming from. I do. And usually, normally, and with very few exceptions, I like to share the road. I like staying out of the way of cars. I appreciate them staying out of my way. I did say that there is a difference between being right and dead right. I even stated that I do let cars go ahead of me before I start of the hill because I don't want to hold everyone up.

But I don't want to pick another road. I like this hill a lot. It's short, kind of steep, has switchbacks, and I love charging up it. In this case, cars need to wait for me. It's only thirty seconds. All they have to do is slow down from 25 to 16. 18 if I'm feeling good. And I think that's okay.

Cars and SUVs are bigger than us. True dat. But if I was a tractor, they'd have to wait. Just 'cause we're tiny doesn't give anyone the right to push past us when using some patience would be better for everyone.


Wow I'm glad you sort of agree.... And you are right..just because we are smaller doesnt give anyone the right to do anything to us...but that is in an ideal world and last time I checked we dont live there!!!
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Old 05-18-06, 12:44 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Miller2
[/B]

Wow I'm glad you sort of agree.... And you are right..just because we are smaller doesnt give anyone the right to do anything to us...but that is in an ideal world and last time I checked we dont live there!!!
It must be some tough riding in GA. If you're ever in Milwaukee, PM me. We'll go ride this hill, and you'll see what I mean.
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Old 05-18-06, 12:49 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Cromulent
It must be some tough riding in GA. If you're ever in Milwaukee, PM me. We'll go ride this hill, and you'll see what I mean.

The riding is pretty good in GA. There are some bike lanes and there are also many country roads without any. Quite frankly I dont think I'd put myself in the position of riding on that hill and taking the chance.

Thanks for the invite though!!
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Old 05-18-06, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller2
Well some member from MN said the same thing. So I looked up his state laws on cycling and it clearly stated that cyclists were NOT TO IMPEDE TRAFFIC. Riding in the lane and stacking up cars behind you is impeding traffic. I'd lay odds that in any state if a cop drove by and saw this he would quickly issue you the hell out of the lane.
Classic child egocentrism. You live in the suburbs of GA, where the roads have nice, wide shoulders. I live near downtown LA, where roads don't have nice wide shoulders, and all the lanes are what CA vehicle code calls "sub-standard" lanes, where a bike and a car can't fit together. According to the CAVC, in sub-standard lanes, you can take the lane...and I'm gonna do it.

Again, a car turning left on a road without turn lanes will inconvenience all the cars behind him, but no one's complaining about him.
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Old 05-18-06, 01:38 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by 0-20 in 5 Sec
Classic child egocentrism. You live in the suburbs of GA, where the roads have nice, wide shoulders. I live near downtown LA, where roads don't have nice wide shoulders, and all the lanes are what CA vehicle code calls "sub-standard" lanes, where a bike and a car can't fit together. According to the CAVC, in sub-standard lanes, you can take the lane...and I'm gonna do it.

Again, a car turning left on a road without turn lanes will inconvenience all the cars behind him, but no one's complaining about him.
HAHA..are you serious? Thats the pot calling the kettle black!! You are calling me egocentric when you are the one who wants to take up the whole lane whether it is smart or safe?

Where I live is irrelevant. If you read my previoous post I said that there are plenty of roads without bike lanes. The ones we do have in most cases are useless.

Take your lane dude..but like I said to the other pig headed poster, dont post it up on the board when your ass gets taken out by an SUV because you were to stubborn to move out of the way.
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