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Backup sample on Lyod Flandis is Positive

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Backup sample on Lyod Flandis is Positive

Old 08-05-06, 06:33 AM
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Blaireau
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Backup sample on Lyod Flandis is Positive

Yeah, I know its Flyod Landis
Here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/05/sp...rtner=homepage

If you read his statement, its interesting to note that he takes a page from the Oscar Peirero book. He says something like, I was the best man in the tour. Read: we were all doped.

I really despise the guy for feeding us such obvious lies re: whiskey and beer for the last week. And he's not stopping.
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Old 08-05-06, 06:40 AM
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It's disgraceful and I don't want to talk about it. What is the chance that there is a reason for this? A natural reason? The part that makes no sense to me is the timing of the positive testing vs the stage it was tested in. Steroids and enhancement drugs don't work the way that is being proposed by the UCI. The part that really, really bugs me is the fact that there were 6 other urine samples that came out clean, and then on the 17th stage there are two "dirty" samples. Makes no sense at all. Taking an enhancement drug at this stage of the race, would be equivalent to eating 8 slices of pepperoni pizza and having that diet coke to save 50 calories. It's nonsensical.
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Old 08-05-06, 06:53 AM
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I would not be surprised to hear if there was some tampering with the samples....with the leaks about Lance's samples last year, I would not be surprised if there is some shady dealings going on in the UCI to unfairly disqualify cyclists from the TdF.

If they want to stop doping, they need to stop all forms of chemical enhacements, and come up with baselines for each athlete to compare against.
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Old 08-05-06, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by catatonic
I would not be surprised to hear if there was some tampering with the samples....with the leaks about Lance's samples last year, I would not be surprised if there is some shady dealings going on in the UCI to unfairly disqualify cyclists from the TdF.

If they want to stop doping, they need to stop all forms of chemical enhacements, and come up with baselines for each athlete to compare against.
OR - both Lance and FLoyd dope along with 99.9% of all pro cyclists...

Which is more likely?
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Old 08-05-06, 06:56 AM
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I was talking to a colombian pro rider the o ther day who's won stages in the Vuelta a Colombia. He used to train with Botero. He disclosed that even though is shocking to most people, but all pros at that level, dope, it's nothing new he candidly remarked. Like someone said above, it's a matter of WHO IS THE BEST
among the DOPED.

Even Lance, by the way. He just happened to be funded big time and had access to the very best, and
knew "how to beat the lie detector" so to speak.

That's the reality. I think I'm starting to believe it.

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Old 08-05-06, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by catatonic
I would not be surprised to hear if there was some tampering with the samples....with the leaks about Lance's samples last year, I would not be surprised if there is some shady dealings going on in the UCI to unfairly disqualify cyclists from the TdF.

I am sorry to say it man, but you are kidding yourself...
Any pro-rider will tell you off the record: they are all doped. Period.
The thing that is grating is that you are parroting the bogus talking points of Phloyd's Reps and attorneys as if it were gospel....
The problem is not with the testing measures, its with the fact that as it is designed (in terms of length and number of stages) you can't win the TdF without doping. No matter what espn "cycling analysts" say. No matter how much disinformation spews out of the side of the mouthes of Phlandis's lawyers... No one is clean in the TdF.
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Old 08-05-06, 07:19 AM
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I'm still not a believer, but this is getting harder and harder to understand now.

QUESTION:

Why the h*ll does a major sporting event test for doping, but not do anything about results until AFTER the winner is crowned????????????

This makes no sense to me at all.

Test--Get Results--Release Immediately.....don't wait until after your champ is crowned then take it away!
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Old 08-05-06, 07:22 AM
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Another thing that makes me sick is the amount of media attention Floyd is getting
now that he is considered a "cheat". There wan't a whole lot of mention of his victory, even on cnn.com
and foxnews.com the TdF had only a small link on one of the side bars. Now Floyd has made the main page! sick, sick sick! but I guess that is what sells copy and attracts advertisers.

I am also further sickened by Greg Lemond's chiming in on the whole thing. That guy is a big wuss - speaking about how Floyd should "come clean" and "tell how they did it". As if Lemond were completely free from any wrongdoing. Like they say in the bible, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. So Lemond should basically shut up.
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Old 08-05-06, 07:23 AM
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Lemond doped too?
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Old 08-05-06, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hipcycler
I'm still not a believer, but this is getting harder and harder to understand now.

QUESTION:

Why the h*ll does a major sporting event test for doping, but not do anything about results until AFTER the winner is crowned????????????

This makes no sense to me at all.

Test--Get Results--Release Immediately.....don't wait until after your champ is crowned then take it away!
Well that's a good point. I bet that they wrangled with it for a good bit. I mean here they were with this great story only to see it dashed a few weeks later...Perhaps some of the Brass in the TdF wanted to keep it under wraps --or perhaps the tests take that long to process.
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Old 08-05-06, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Hipcycler
Why the h*ll does a major sporting event test for doping, but not do anything about results until AFTER the winner is crowned????????????
It takes time for the analysis and results. There's also a protocol between each step that involves notifications and approvals for each stage of testing.

I'd guess, US sponsorship during the race would prefer to see Landis still in the competition too.
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Old 08-05-06, 07:58 AM
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EURO is the only one on these threads that gets it--seriously, you guys are in HUGE denial

say what you want about his other comments (personally I agree with a lot of his other commentary--but you guys seems to abhor contrary opinions and label him a "troll")

cycling is a dirty sport, has been for over 100 years--this isn't about Lance/Floyd/US vs France/'Livestrong' etc etc etc, it's about a sport that is alien to most Americans (one that unfortunately 99% of the people on this board also don't understand)
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Old 08-05-06, 08:01 AM
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Maybe the solution is to do away with drug testing completely, along with prize money, sponsorship, endorsements and all the other hoopla, and just have a race. Do you think anyone would show up?
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Old 08-05-06, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Serpico
EURO is the only one on these threads that gets it--seriously, you guys are in HUGE denial

say what you want about his other comments (personally I agree with a lot of his other commentary--but you guys seems to abhor contrary opinions and label him a "troll")

cycling is a dirty sport, has been for over 100 years--this isn't about Lance/Floyd/US vs France/'Livestrong' etc etc etc, it's about a sport that is alien to most Americans (one that unfortunately 99% of the people on this board also don't understand)

YES, I AM in denial.

I'm still relatively new to this pro cycling sport, and I do not want to believe it. However, I am open to learning more about it.

Let me ask you and EURO and those in your camp then....

If indeed they all dope, then FLOYD IS KING ANYWAY....right?!
He won the damn race, and as you say, they ALL dope, so he's still #1 in an even playing field right?!
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Old 08-05-06, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by godspiral
It takes time for the analysis and results. There's also a protocol between each step that involves notifications and approvals for each stage of testing.

I'd guess, US sponsorship during the race would prefer to see Landis still in the competition too.
Not only that, again per this pro rider I was talking to, he added they all get doped to a certain "acceptable" limit where whoever gets the luckiest of the draw if tested, it won't show. It's almost like playing the lottery, who knows, you might get away with it.
Of course, stage winners get tested immediately, specially someone like Floyd winning the awesome way he did. Sometimes, riders make the mistake to eat something or drink something which might shoot up
those already "higher " levels making it go pass that "acceptable limit". Perhaps, the demise for Floyd was the drinks he had that night, which could've triggered his testosterone to the point where it was gonna be detectable if winning, which he did.

Something to really think about, I'd say.

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Old 08-05-06, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Serpico
EURO is the only one on these threads that gets it--seriously, you guys are in HUGE denial

say what you want about his other comments (personally I agree with a lot of his other commentary--but you guys seems to abhor contrary opinions and label him a "troll")

cycling is a dirty sport, has been for over 100 years--this isn't about Lance/Floyd/US vs France/'Livestrong' etc etc etc, it's about a sport that is alien to most Americans (one that unfortunately 99% of the people on this board also don't understand)
Thanks Serpico, but I got it too --about 25 years ago, lol! Just read my posts. Or perhaps those reading glasses of yours need to be replaced
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Old 08-05-06, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Hipcycler
YES, I AM in denial.

I'm still relatively new to this pro cycling sport, and I do not want to believe it. However, I am open to learning more about it.

Let me ask you and EURO and those in your camp then....

If indeed they all dope, then FLOYD IS KING ANYWAY....right?!
He won the damn race, and as you say, they ALL dope, so he's still #1 in an even playing field right?!
yeah, he kicked everyone elses ass

same with Armstrong--he beat a bunch of other dopers, so yeah even playing field

I don't blame it on the cyclists, I blame it on the culture of European cycling, and now the culture of US cycling too

you literally can't even begin to imagine how difficult these races are (not you personally, I mean none of us--and trust me I'm not fast/racer)

I'm not too concerned with Landis or Lance, or even Tyler--they'll do okay. my concern is for the young idealistic kids that race in europe--their ds says "take the stuff or you don't ride"--these aren't basketball stars that got a scholarship to duke and then drafted to the nba with a multi-million dollar contract, these are young kids in a working class sport, one that has no paralells to the sports that we watch as americans

read some tour history, heck--they used to ride trains to the finish and then ride there bike for the final kms, people did tons of crazy stuff, and drugs have ALWAYS been a part of the sport, cheating has ALWAYS been a part of cycling

we shouldn't be surprised, but we also need to look at the sport, the official infrastructure, the cycling federations, etc--but we say "well he's a cheater" and their teams profess ignorance

Bjarne Riis was known as "Mr. 60%" for his wavering hematocrit level during his cycling career--yet he was "surprised" when Basso was implicated--PUHLEASE

it's "hear no evil, see no evil" of the worst kind--a huge "open secret" that everyone associated with the sport understands

as someone else said: "Cycling is not a healthy occupation"
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Old 08-05-06, 08:18 AM
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Good stuff Serpico.
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Old 08-05-06, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
I am sorry to say it man, but you are kidding yourself...
Any pro-rider will tell you off the record: they are all doped. Period.
The thing that is grating is that you are parroting the bogus talking points of Phloyd's Reps and attorneys as if it were gospel....
The problem is not with the testing measures, its with the fact that as it is designed (in terms of length and number of stages) you can't win the TdF without doping. No matter what espn "cycling analysts" say. No matter how much disinformation spews out of the side of the mouthes of Phlandis's lawyers... No one is clean in the TdF.

Exactly, so if everyone is doped, then why aren't they all DQed....oh wiat, one had the better, more up to date drug....oh wait, how do the "no-name" riders have the better drugs?

That's what grating to me, nothing here makes sense....either it's a dopefest, or they will clean it up, easy as that....and so far I haven't seen jack to alter doping habits....the tents are still in use, and that's technically doping.
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Old 08-05-06, 08:55 AM
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if we assume everyone is cheating it's obviously not a level playing field because you don't know how much each cyclist is doping. if everyone is cheating and landis won, it'd be a stronger statement to say landis is the best doper of the bunch, not the best cyclist.

i'm very new to cycling but i have a strong background in participating in competitive sports, and one thing my coach taught me that i will never forget is that crossing the finish line first is not what defines a winner. if you dope you don't deserve to win, period. i don't care if you get caught or not. call me naive, but if everyone in pro cycling is doping, then nobody deserves to win.
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Old 08-05-06, 09:57 AM
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I say all professional sports should be exempt for doping and let those bastards inject up to their eyeballs if they wish. They are killing their own liver, not yours. And whether we believe it or not, pro sports should be where the man with the best damn loaded needle will probably win! That's my 2 cents; worth 5 cents in some circles. Rip it all you want boys!
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Old 08-05-06, 10:57 AM
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complete uber-noob here. gonna be one heck of a first post. Started spinning this spring as an alternative to running all the time, instructor was actually a cyclist as opposed to just an aerobics instructor on a bike. I started before the TdF, and started lurking here. Still trying to gather the money for a first bike.

Comments on the above:

1. Believe as most above that likely everything/everyone is dirty. In the world of testing, it has become a constant back in forth between scientists to develop the latest, best, stuff that avoids detection, while other scientists try to come up with how to detect the other stuff and what not. Same thing in military development. Someone designs a missile with tons new capabilities, maneuvers, anti-jamming computers, etc etc, while the others keep trying to come up with a system/weapon that CAN defeat it.

2. So, given that everyone is dirty, it is a game of avoiding detection. The authority outlines 'limits" and then everyone tries to adjust their body chemistry to be as high as possible for the enhancement without going over the threshhold / positive test. Usually there are some statistical 1-sigma deviations before something is considered a positive test. (i.e. - 10 micro-grams per liter is natural, so they say 20 micro-grams is a positive, so everyone tries to get their body chemistry at 19 micro-grams to be enhanced, without being above the illegal #.)

3. if that is the case, maybe Landis' tactics of whatever supplements/enhancements he used, which would probably put him just shy of testing positive, but perhaps dehydration, jack and cokes, too much pasta, whatever could have irregularly affected the chemistry to make it enough to get a positive test. In his mind, I'm sure it is that "What I took should in no way have been enough to give me a positive test!"

Final comment from this noob, since I am violating every first-time poster rule ever listed anywhere on the internet....

4. Oscar P. is probably just as guilty This analysis is only from a human nature approach. His first response was appropriately delicate..."Hey, it would be a bureaucratic win" and he seemed to defer to just let everything run its course -- very smart, because if he had jumped up and screamed at the "A' test, and then the B test didnt give the same results, he would look like an idiot.

so, watching Oscar in the next week will be interesting. If he comes in understated, really doesnt say much, then it is obvious that he follows the same methods as everyone else (and inarticulately described in point 3 above). If he is truly clean, then he will likely be very vocal about everything wrong with the sport, and his ability to stay clean and still compete, etc etc.

Bottom line when you are truly innocent, you don't need lawyers to craft statements. you get out there and violently deny deny deny. You only have to be careful what you say when you are guilty.

That said, loved watching it all every night, and still can't wait to get my first bike.

Flame suit on.
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Old 08-05-06, 11:06 AM
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There is an explanation that would prove Flandis has a naturally superhuman high t/et ratio:

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Old 08-05-06, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Hipcycler
Lemond doped too?
LMFAO!!!! I'd write more, but it's hard to reach the keyboard while I'm writhing on the floor in laughter.
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Old 08-05-06, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BrentDev
complete uber-noob here. gonna be one heck of a first post. Started spinning this spring as an alternative to running all the time, instructor was actually a cyclist as opposed to just an aerobics instructor on a bike. I started before the TdF, and started lurking here. Still trying to gather the money for a first bike.

Comments on the above:

1. Believe as most above that likely everything/everyone is dirty. In the world of testing, it has become a constant back in forth between scientists to develop the latest, best, stuff that avoids detection, while other scientists try to come up with how to detect the other stuff and what not. Same thing in military development. Someone designs a missile with tons new capabilities, maneuvers, anti-jamming computers, etc etc, while the others keep trying to come up with a system/weapon that CAN defeat it.

2. So, given that everyone is dirty, it is a game of avoiding detection. The authority outlines 'limits" and then everyone tries to adjust their body chemistry to be as high as possible for the enhancement without going over the threshhold / positive test. Usually there are some statistical 1-sigma deviations before something is considered a positive test. (i.e. - 10 micro-grams per liter is natural, so they say 20 micro-grams is a positive, so everyone tries to get their body chemistry at 19 micro-grams to be enhanced, without being above the illegal #.)

3. if that is the case, maybe Landis' tactics of whatever supplements/enhancements he used, which would probably put him just shy of testing positive, but perhaps dehydration, jack and cokes, too much pasta, whatever could have irregularly affected the chemistry to make it enough to get a positive test. In his mind, I'm sure it is that "What I took should in no way have been enough to give me a positive test!"

Final comment from this noob, since I am violating every first-time poster rule ever listed anywhere on the internet....

4. Oscar P. is probably just as guilty This analysis is only from a human nature approach. His first response was appropriately delicate..."Hey, it would be a bureaucratic win" and he seemed to defer to just let everything run its course -- very smart, because if he had jumped up and screamed at the "A' test, and then the B test didnt give the same results, he would look like an idiot.

so, watching Oscar in the next week will be interesting. If he comes in understated, really doesnt say much, then it is obvious that he follows the same methods as everyone else (and inarticulately described in point 3 above). If he is truly clean, then he will likely be very vocal about everything wrong with the sport, and his ability to stay clean and still compete, etc etc.

Bottom line when you are truly innocent, you don't need lawyers to craft statements. you get out there and violently deny deny deny. You only have to be careful what you say when you are guilty.

That said, loved watching it all every night, and still can't wait to get my first bike.

Flame suit on.
Welcome, and nice first post. And, yes, I think Peirero is just as guilty (just more careful), but whether or not he is silent or loud has no bearing on his guilt or lackthereof --it'll just enlighten us to his personality.
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