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What's STIFFER, Carbon or AL.....?

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What's STIFFER, Carbon or AL.....?

Old 08-11-06, 06:32 PM
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Corsaire
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What's STIFFER, Carbon or AL.....?

Handlebar, that is.

If your were to choose a STIFF handlebar for sprinting,

Would you go CARBON or AL?

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Old 08-11-06, 06:56 PM
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Sounds like a can of worms! Someone's Alu bar might be stiffer than someone else's carbon, and vice versa. We need some sort of a machine to test them on.
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Old 08-11-06, 07:02 PM
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I would never make a blanket statement over the usefullness of one material like this. It's 100% dependent on the design of the bars. You can make an aluminum bar that's incredibly flexy or insanely stiff.
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Old 08-11-06, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cydewaze
Sounds like a can of worms! Someone's Alu bar might be stiffer than someone else's carbon, and vice versa. We need some sort of a machine to test them on.
Say, a FSA K Wing Carbon would be stiffer than a Deda Al ?

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Old 08-11-06, 07:24 PM
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This might help.


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Old 08-11-06, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TCR
This might help.


Priceless.
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Old 08-11-06, 07:54 PM
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The bigger question is would you notice it?
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Old 08-11-06, 08:01 PM
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Steel is the stiffest. If you look at any serious track bike, you will see a steel bar and stem combo, most likely Nitto.
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Old 08-11-06, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by EdZ
Steel is the stiffest. If you look at any serious track bike, you will see a steel bar and stem combo, most likely Nitto.
oh?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...nchtsOG804-410
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...teamsOG804-094
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...q_dsc_0260gane
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...ne200OG804-801
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...5gane_bourgain
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...8gane_bourgain


That said, cydewaze pretty much has it right. Its not the material, its the design.
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Old 08-11-06, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsaire
Handlebar, that is.

If your were to choose a STIFF handlebar for sprinting,

Would you go CARBON or AL?
Yes.
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Old 08-11-06, 08:26 PM
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Yes, it's a can of worms, but go with Aluminum. Stem and handlebar. Plus it's almost always cheaper.
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Old 08-11-06, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BigFloppyLlama
oh? That said, cydewaze pretty much has it right. Its not the material, its the design.
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
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Old 08-11-06, 09:10 PM
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For sure go with a alu stem. Those carbon stems are way too expensive and look too bulky. A lot of pro's use the Ritchey WCS alu stems and bars. I have a Ritchey carbon bar and alu bar and I can't tell any difference.
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Old 08-11-06, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by EdZ
Steel is the stiffest. If you look at any serious track bike, you will see a steel bar and stem combo, most likely Nitto.
Do not be too sure about that. The only handlebars I have ever bent were a set of Nitto bars. It happened when I took my touring bike down a long, rocky single-track. The builder gave me a new set of Nitto bars at his cost.
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Old 08-11-06, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinF
I would never make a blanket statement over the usefullness of one material like this. It's 100% dependent on the design of the bars. You can make an aluminum bar that's incredibly flexy or insanely stiff.
Yup. I find my steel nitto handle bar is stiffer then my dimension alu one.
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Old 08-11-06, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclintom
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
Then why is one rider using a steel bar while the other carbon?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...nchtsOG804-410

edit: and on that note the french riders' bars have no discernable logo while the american bars clearly show an easton logo. What you said is generally true, but certainly not always the case.
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Old 08-12-06, 02:33 AM
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it would be really cool if there were titanium ones... they would be stiff!

but with stiffness, i like to stick to weight, the heavier it is generally the stiff it is as there is more 'stuff' in there to support it. Like a 300grm carbon bar will proberly be stiffer than a 209grm deda newton.
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Old 08-12-06, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclintom
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
I'd think they're racing on equipment that the racer feels give him the best chance to win. If the marketing gurus want to get out the paint can and some stickers to make it look like "what they want advertised", well, don't let that fool you into believing that's what it actually is.
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Old 08-12-06, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinF
I would never make a blanket statement over the usefullness of one material like this. It's 100% dependent on the design of the bars. You can make an aluminum bar that's incredibly flexy or insanely stiff.
+1,000,000

Why does everyone think that stiffness is solely a function of frame material?!?!? Engineers are hired to design various parts for a reason.
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Old 08-12-06, 12:04 PM
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steel is not the stiffest , not by a long shot. steel takes longer to fatigue, yes ,but we are talking stiffness, not fatigue rate. i would say go with alumium because even though its possible to get carbon to be stiffer, the cost to reward ratio is too small. You can spend 60percent less on a alumium part and it will be 5 percent less stiff. But if you want specifics, write an email to the companys you have in mind and ask for the "tensile load graphs" for the bars you have in mind
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Old 08-12-06, 12:11 PM
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Old 08-12-06, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclintom
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
Easton site

the carbon bars cost a zillion dollars, weigh about a pound, but (if the manufacturer can be believed) deliver the goods.

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Old 08-12-06, 01:00 PM
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I have a set of integrated carbon bars/stem made by Trigon. They are much stiffer than the Aluminum ITM Millenium bar and stem combo on my wifes bike. The weight is about the same. They are however, much more expensive. I think the integration of the bar/stem really helps stiffen things up with this particular set.

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Old 08-12-06, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mothra
With same-size samples, steel is 3x stiffer than alloy and 2x stiffer than titanium. To make an aluminium part just as stiff as steel, you have to make it 3x thicker, and 2x thicker in titanium. Using 60% less material in aluminium will have it be over 6x more flexible than steel.
But bicycle engineering is more like aerospace engineering, where weight is a large design concern. When choosing a material for a bike, satellite, or aircraft, dividing the property in question by the material's density is useful.

Young's modulus (E) is a measure of material stiffness. E(steel) ~ 200 GPa, and E(Al) ~ 70 GPa, so steel is about 2.9 times stiffer than aluminum. Density(steel) ~ 7.8 gm/cm^3, Density(Al) ~ 2.7 gm/cm^3, so steel is about 2.86 times heavier than aluminum. Since the ratio of stiffnesses is about the same as the ratio of densities, it's a wash between choosing steel or aluminum for stiffness.

Now if the design is constrained by space (like a square taper bottom bracket spindle), steel wins out. An equally stiff aluminum part would have to be bigger, but there is no way to make the part bigger.

Frame design runs into a different problem. To make a stiff and light steel frame, you need to use large diameter tubing. But a large diameter tube meas thin steel walls, and the tubing becomes too fragile. A small ding in the tube can cause it to collapse like a beer can. Aluminum wins out in this competition for light and stiff frames, since thicker tubing walls prevent the beer can failure problem.

What about carbon fiber tubing? It's tensile stiffness is about half way between steel and Al, but its density is about half that of Al. With those properties, it's no wonder that CF is finding its way into so many parts (bike and aircraft).
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Old 08-12-06, 04:51 PM
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this thread sure is a *****-fest.. why dont we all just ask the OP why he needs bars so stiff.. then we can probably agree on what he really needs.
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