godspiral

Which of these bike features might explain why the first bike handles and leans better into turns than the 2nd.

1. light frame 1960s Olmo
heavy steel cottered crank
23mm and 21mm tubular tires 700cc light alloy
seat 3/4" lower than ideal -- bars not much lower than seat.
2cm under square frame design (shorter TT)
rocks nice and easy while sprinting or climbing, and feels very stiff.

2. 80s Fuji Espree mixte (sloping TT)
27" alloy clinchers 1 1/4" (not as light though)
short seattube with long post. -- so fairly high seat to bar ratio.
only 1cm longer virtual (horizontal) top tube.
alloy drivetrain components.
feels ok stiff climbing... not the same rocking action.

A very heavy and stiff 26" mtb (with oversize downtube) turns and leans almost as well as the Olmo. Test riding a trek 1000 and ocr2 (with very long toptubes and stems) felt much closer to the Fuji. Its not like I'm falling down in turns... just that leaning more would feel unnatural and uneasy.

What factors have you found cause these differences in bikes?

Scooper

What about the differences in wheelbase, head tube angle, seat tube angle, and fork rake? You didn't mention any of these.

Retro Grouch 

Yeah. I kind of suspect that it has a lot to do with front to back weight balance but I'm not knowledgable enough to evaluate all of those combined factors.

godspiral

those parameters look all the same to me on the 2 bikes. Pictured is another mixte that has the same handling feeling as the Fuji. The MTB has a straight fork. One diff between the 2 bikes is a longer stem on the mixte which puts hands further forward.

The steeper seat angles of TT and tri bikes hurt handling right?

Don't virtually all road bikes have 73* seat angles, unless they have special purpose?

If I had to guess at what the answer is, the top factor would be frame stiffness and smaller wheels.

wonderboy

you're ******** and have no idea what you're talking about. stop trying to guess and spend the time learing about front end geometry. Angles of head tubes, offset of forks, etc etc varies quite widely on road bikes and you CANNOT tell what these measurements are by looking at a bike. You sound stupid saying what you are saying.

Read up:

https://www.calfeedesign.com/frontendterms.htm

https://www.dclxvi.org/chunk/tech/trail/

https://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7322.0.html

ElJamoquio

Lay off the caffeine, wonderkid.

HolyInstantRice

There way too many factors to describe ''good'' handling, and therein lies the conundrum of what ''good'' handling is.

godspiral

I'm using it to refer to the ability to make sharp(er) turns at high(er) speed, and the tendency for the bike to help the rider feel as though he can lean into those turns.

I'm guessing the actual max lean angle for all the bikes is the same. Just one bike feels like approaching that angle is done under control while an another feels less comfortable.

godspiral

thanks for the links, but its wrong of you to use such harsh language.

Also, I am sure that "all handling criteria is primarily determined by fork trail" is wrong, as is "the more fast turning the bike the less stable it is" (parameters that fork trail supposedly trades off). The reason, my better leaning/turning bikes are not less stable. Therefore, there are necessarily other factors. In the case of the MTB, I'd say wider handlebars help both in ease of turning and stability.

fmw

Go back and read Scooper's post. It is geometry that determines these things.

fogrider

the biggest factor: a good rider.

handling depends on the biomechanics of rider and bike. a bike that handles well for one person mgiht not handle well for another. I like bikes that steer from the hips...think about it, at speed do you really turn the handlebars much?

wonko

My GMC Denali (hush it's a good bike) is very agile. Remember, it's not the weight of the bike, not the style or maker, it's about who is riding it. Lean into the turn until you feel your pedal (or shoe) about to touch the ground. I've out cornered people on Merlin bikes with my Magna before.

lpress

How do you think you sound when you say such things?

Larry

fmw

No, handling characteristics are inherent to the geometry of the frame and components. That geometry may or may not affect different riders differently and riders may have a preference for one geometry over another but the handling for any bike will be the same regardless of who rides it.

wildjim

A bit harsh but true or sad but true. . .

Please also go attack the carbon(fragile) aluminum(harsh ride) prejudice and steel is real fanatics; there you will find much foolish prejudice and idiotic notions.

As stated just research and read with an open mind. . .

godspiral

In practically every field, for most people, the less they know, the stronger their opinion is. I see this every day with economics. There is a tendency for people to want just enough information to conclude "is the free market or Saddam Hussein good or evil", so that they can then immidiately forget the subtlety in that information and rely on expert opinions to convert shades of grey into black and white for them.

Fork trail is simply not the only parameter involved in balancing twitchy vs stable. It would be a simple matter for every 20" folder to be ultra stable if it were. I agree that front/rear weight balance makes a difference, as leaning forwards or having a rear rack makes a difference, but that difference is fairly small.

Perhaps the very stiff bikes are easier to unlean out of a turn somehow?... and so can be turned more responsively, and that instills confidence in leaning/unleaning that makes doing so more comfortable?

Does every bike you've ever ridden, rock the same while you stand/climb/sprint? Every bike you've ever ridden is either very stable or very easy to turn and lean?

If you are going to throw around ****** labels, be able to back it up with actual knowledge. Answer the paradoxical points I've pointed out in this post, if trail is all that matters.

Retro Grouch 

We have a bingo!

godspiral

On the bikes with poor leaning comfort, I had put the saddle all the way back thinking it would help with knee pain one day. Moving it forward seems to have "fixed" them. Seat position affects the front to back weight distribution a lot compared to just leaning a bit harder on the front, because your full body weight is more forward.

The mixte bikes actually look to have near 0 trail when measuring... while the Olmo points near 2/36ths of a wheel of trail, so the front to back weight makes a very big impact, and is easy to change.