Titanium versus Steel
 

Before everyone gets all bent out of shape, I am curious and I am sure there is an opinion. If you take two quality frame builders say Waterford and Litespeed, build a frame with the exact geometry, just how close would the two rides be? I am a steel believer; but, I also the know the disadvantages like rust and even weight. I just would like to hear opinions from those of you that have experienced both. Really though, the only way you can compare apples to apples is to have two quality builders and build a frame with their respective speciality material matched with the exact geometry.

Well as I've said before, steel is magnetic, titanium isn't.
The problem is that when you're riding near an unshielded particle accelerator, you'd get sucked in.

What the heck does that mean?

How is that a problem? You would go faster than you've ever bicycled before.

You guys are confusing me. I was just asking what I thought was a simple hypothetical question. Not trying to cause a stir since these types of threads have been hammered. Quality frame builders, one using titanium and the other using steel. Exactly the same geometry, how would the rides compare?

probelm is your hypothetical leaves out tube diameter, tube thickness, tube shape and butting. If you made all those equal, the TI bike would be way noodly compared to the steel.

closest example I can give is a Waterford built steel frame,and a merlin extralight,both of which I've ridden over 20,000 miles. The geometry is pretty similar. The Steel bike definitely feels crisper, and more rigid and responsive. But the Merlin is more compliant comfortable, and lighter.

However you could get the exact opposite result by manipulating tube shapes, diameters and thickneses. The other confounder is one has a steel fork and the other CF.

Really dude he'll never be riding in any such place. Get real. Don't listen to those guys. What is going to be a concern is that if you want your bike to last you will not be able to do any under water riding. However coating your bike in Vaseline will help.

But seriously, I don't have much experience on a Ti frame. The basics seem to be that they are much lighter than steel, non corrosive, but still absorb more road vibe than aluminum. If it were me I'd just go out and ride, like you suggest, very similar geometries. But why not throw an aluminum and a carbon in there while your at it just to be more edjucated. :)

Really, I just trying to get some attention. I was thinking of a say, Litespeed Classic and Waterford 2200. The tubing on the two frames seems or at least appears very traditional and was just "fishing" as to the opinions of all of our experts cause I know someone has the experience.

get the waterford

They'd be the same. Unless you wanted to feel some difference in which case the difference would be astounding. Prolly depends on which one is more expensive. A steel Seven will ride much nicer than a Ti Habanero, but a Temple Ti will ride much nicer than a Gunnar Roadie. It's all about how loud your wallet talks to you once you've dropped the money.

Here's why that question cannot be answered.

When you order a frame from Waterford, you will be interviewed. You will be asked quite a few questions to help Marc Muller come up with the right design for you. Spinner or masher? Climb standing or seated? Carry stuff on rack? Are you flexible or not? What are your goals for this bike? Height vs weight, and so on. Then he will, by carefully gauging the tubes and tweaking the angles and stays and such, deliver a frame as close to perfection for you as possible. Let's say you let your friend ride it because he's about the same size. What does his opinion mean? Very little. I mean, he may love the way it rides, or he may not. That doesn't mean it isn't still absolutely right for you.

I don't know if Litespeed has a custom program these days or not, but I doubt they're custom gauging tubes and the like...so even if the geometries are identical in every respect, the fact that one was built with only you in mind and the other wasn't is where the difference lies.

Rigidity, stiffness, flex....other than combative parlour talk, these things are irrelevant to the vast majority of the cyclists on this planet. Ask Richard Sachs about frame stiffness...

An excerpt from an interview he gave a few years ago to Grant Peterson of Rivendell:

GP: What are your thoughts on frame stiffness?

RS: I don't ever consider stiffness in my frame. I wouldn't even know how to define it. When people talk to me about it, I've no clue what they are talking about.

GP: What do you mean you have no clue?

RS: Well, the bike has to be forgiving and resilient so it can be ridden comfortably. I don't know what stiffness is. My notion is that when a rider feels what he thinks is a lack of it (stiffness) it's really the result of a poorly designed or constructed bike. I think the assembly methods also contribute to how the bike feels, and it's not simply the tube's gauge or cross section.

When one of the acknowledged "greatest living framebuilders" says something like that, I listen.

The bike industry lives on hype. You don't have to believe it. Educate yourself by listening to established masters, not to marketing departments.:)

go ride IF, they build both ti and steel. it use to be that ti was lighting, but look at what waterford is doing with S3 tubing. they can build a frame that weighs in just over 3 pounds. most of litespeeds frames come in around 3.2 pounds. steel will be a shaper ride and a waterford 2200 is built around quick handling, great if you're looking for crit racing and flying down hills. but if you're looking for a century bike, it might not be the best choice.

Guess I will end this thread by saying that I already ride a Waterford and love the ride. I was as originally stated, curious about the difference in the ride with an identical geometry and similiar sized tubing. Thanks for the comments. Wasn't trying to cause a stir, just curious. :) :)

Yeah, they're pretty choice, aren't they? I have a 2200 with polished stainless head lugs and an R33 built to identical geometries. Night and day different. I'm having Marc make me a steel fork for the R33. Carbon forks leave me cold... I also have a Madone 5.9SL, and while it may be more plush than the 2200, it can't quite beat the R33 for that all-day in the saddle thang.:D

+1

this BikeWise1 cat is smart imo

listen to the masters--cut through the chaff

a lot of the stuff here is just regurgitated from bike company brochures

be skeptical

At the base material level the primary difference, other than magnetics, is the elastic modulus and weight density. Steel elastic modulus and weight density are both roughly 2X higher than those of Ti. The modulus difference can be easily made up by increasing the tube wall thickness which adds some of the weight back. The steel version will still be slightly heavier for the same strength and stiffness. All said and done I believe for most riders the only difference they might notice is the difference in their wallet ;) Personally, and at the risk of reflaming some prior debates, I'm a carbon/epoxy matrix rider :D

If you want to give it a shot go buy a Serotta Fierte Ti and a Fierte Steel in the same size...and pick CF stays or not on both bikes.

Tell us what you find out. :D

Sounds similar to a project that I am working on.
I am using older Lemond size 53cm framesets and DA8 groupos.
I have the steel side covered with 1999 Zurich Reynolds 853, horizontal dropouts, 1" threaded headset and a 2001 Maillot Jaune with the ovalized Reynolds 853, vertical dropouts 1 1/8" unthreaded headset.
For Ti I need to get an Arrivee framset.
For Al I need to get a later Chambery with its Time Stilleto fork or an Alp de Huez with the Air Rail fork.

Oh how true that is. That is why I bought an aluminum frame. You can never be too safe.

- i live on a peninsula (surrounded by salt water on three sides) and ride Ti and steel... i love both... (Merlin Ti, Serrota steel)...

- guess which one is more expensive?

That sounds like a fun expirement. I wish I had more money.

Litespeed has somewhat of a custom program, however the original founders of Litespeed are back in business selling nothing but custom Ti bikes.

Check them out here. http://lynskeyperformance.com/

I think a good framebuilder can make either material ride as you would like. I chose my IF Ti CJ over a steel version because, it was lighter, I get caught in the rain, and no paint to worry about (chips and ensuing rust). I'm not saying that a properly maintained steel frame is an issue in the rain but Ti is truely mindless.

check the website, they are selling off-the-rack frames, for less than Litespeed.

Slvoid's post reminded me of the day a grad student entered our NMR lab with a bike, someone moved the bike out of the way within the magnetic radius of the NMR machine (essentially a huge magnet), and the thing just whipped across the room onto the side of the machine, very Wile E. Coyote.