nathank

as to running: i've never been a competetive runner, but i think the effect is minimal although in an olympic 1500m it might make a difference where the winner can be determined by miliseconds. top runners run about 5 minute miles so that's 12mph (19.2km/h)and i think at less than 20km/h the effect of drafting should be pretty small. (unless there were a strong headwind!)

swimming: yes the speed is less, but the DRAG in water is MUCH MUCH higher, thus the effect can be great. as i said above i am a horrible swimmer (compared to real triathletes) and i just try and survive the swim without being in the bottom 10%, but i think you could save on the order of a few seconds at least in the typical 1.5km triathlon swim. any triathletes know how significant or specifically try and draft during the swim?

but i am pretty sure the top triathletes do draft in the swim... (but it's too dificult to control as in cycling as it would be hard to monitor, plus it's hard for swimmers to keep track of how close they are to someone ahead of them as you can't see in the water like on the bike)

denbrewers

[QUOTEThis is where I really admire triatheletes. They ride alone most of the time. If they tell you they average 22 mph it most likely was not due to a group pulling them along for 75% of the ride.
QUOTE]


Aaah! But they are thriathletes, don't forget. They've got their bikes set-up quite differently. More on that - below. For one thing, all thriatlets are aero-geeks. They've got drag- and watts-numbers running through their veins, I think. Talk to any thriatlete, before you glance at his bike, and ask him how much he averaged in yesterday's race. And he woldn't tell you! It's not that they don't care, it's just they're more preoccupied with how much watts they need to apply on a particular part of the ride course, rather then at what speed they should be going through it. And they're absolutely on it, I mean. I've seen a thriathlet who's had two bike computers tied to his bike's handlebars. well, one measured heart rates, another - watts. And that was it! No speed measuring whatsoever.

Now, what about their riding style? They sit far more forward compared even to the elite road time trialists. But better aerodynamics and UCI regulations are just partially be blamed for it. The reason they need to slide so far forward and put up with crunching their family jewells is for their heart and lungs be positioned similar to what it was on the previous leg of the competition - swimming - be parallel parallel to the floor that is. That way they're able to keep heart rates in zone 3 and still be able to rev at well over 105 rpm on a 55*11 (quite a terrific rate of knots! - you try and replicate that on a road bike - it'd be interesting to see your looks after 3 miles, no offence!) And then, don't forget - they've got a running leg still to come. So their bikes are set up in such a way so that they're still able to breath through the nose at the end of the cycling leg of the competition - and that means keeping your hear rate at an average rate.

And I haven't even mentioned the aero gizmos on their bikes yet! And those do give you a lot of time. The hell of a lot of time, in fact. A pair of good aero wheels gives you the minimum in the neighbourhood of 2'30 minutes at a 25 miles race if you are half serious! A good aero fork and frame fairings might add some extra 30-45 seconds. Low-profiled pedals bring in 1'30 minutes alone! But by far the most time you get from right positioning - 5- 7 minutes - easily - if you sit right.

Now, to the everage speed we, roadies, do. In a yesterday's 25 miles criterium race we averaged 27,32 mph, with first two laps 4,5 miles) going at a whopping 31 mph (there was someone really desperate at the front to break away). Some got dropped along the way. I hanged in there by fingernails, but got dropped in the final sprint though - this was way too much for me.

During the season we train at 22-24 mph. We've got a guy who can go at 27 mph in a strong head-wind and still be talking jokes with you. The guy weighs in at 212 lbs and rides a 37 lbs old steel bike with platform pedals and 1'1/4 tyres. When we get into the wind we just duck behind underneath his awesome back. You won't believe his power!

Den Brewers

- God must have cried when you left heaven.
- Yes, and he held a huge party when you left.

mnppunky

I decided to go riding last night even though it looked like rain was moving in. It has been raining here off and on all week now so I decided to go for it. I had to cut my ride to just 12 miles but I averaged a speed of 18.2mph with alot of storm wind blowing in different directions. This was probably the most fun ride I have had this year and I beat the storm home. It started pouring as soon as I made it to the garage. Boy did I get a workout!

fubar5

Solo is usually in the 18-22 mph range..depends on stops signs and hills.

meltable

Denbrewers, no offense intended - but where are you getting these numbers from? 1 minute, 30 seconds faster on a 25 mile course, just from low profile pedals? I understand that aerodynamics play a large role, especially at top level competitions where the athlete's fitness levels are so similar, but this seems like a lot from such a small difference.

Mike

EagleEye

Thanks for posting, guys. Love reading posts of what people did in previous year(s) compared to what they're doing now, on average. Motivates the hell out of me to ride harder. :thumbup:

denbrewers

The right set of pedals give a rider more time than a vast majority of aero-shaped frames and forks simply because in terms of physics these belong to two different systems, namely, statick and moving objects. During the ride pedalls travel at far higher rate of knots than the bike and the rider - especially on the downstroke. It was was quite hard for me to grasp this concept at first, I remember. That area of the bike, by virtue of sheer speed, create a lot of aero drag - more than the frame, albeit it may appear to have a thinner and somewhat more streamlined profile to a casual observer.

This is why most elite Time Trialists are tought to ride with their kneels scraping the top tube of the frame. In fact, if you look at some of the frames ridden by known time trialists or track pursuers - provided they've been used long enough - you would notice the wax or the paint or stickers ((or whatever there is they put on top of the metal or carbon layers) peeling off the area where their knees have been going over.

Another wourthy of note subtlety about elite riders are the shoe covers they put over their ankles. Granted, they keep one's toes warm. But they also cut aerodynamic resistance in that crucial shoe-to-pedal area - and I repeat - this is the area of the bicycle that might clock up twice as much speed then the bicycle's going speed. And there is also a very strong belief in the cycling community that legs' shaving has something to do with aerodynamics as well. But I personally can't vouch for that. I haven't seen the data. It may well be a make-believe. I dunno.
But this is not the case with the bicycle hardware. Maitre John Cobb - the reigning guru of bicycle aerodynamics - has conducted extensive and thorough tests in this area. He is the second man behind Lance Armstrong's terrific breakthrough in cycling in the late 1990s - no more no less. He taught Lance a thing or two about becoming more aero, there's no doubt about that whatsoever.

But to the point. In aerodynamics looks are deceiving - more than anything. Unless you have the thing tested in a wind tunnel, you can't judge it in terms of whether it would give you aerodynamic advantage or not. That way all design flaws show up mercilessly. And, on the contrary, if the thing is aero indeed, it'd be evident straight off.

There's plenty of tests data out there on the Internet, by the way. A lot of people find it boring though and don't bother reading into the tables filled with drag- and watts- and jaw-numbers and than having to extrapolate them onto the miles to see the net result - we're talking about mathematical equations here, don't forget. One thing for sure, though, Lance didn't belong to that group. He was fanatical about becoming aero (this is where the years he's spent during his triathlon career have shown through!) And he's really tapped into that knowledge, it seems. This is where his rivalls have been loosing out - year in, year out.

But don't take my word for it, guys. Take John Cobb's, take Lance's. They know for sure what they're talking about.

Den Brewers

- What sign were you born under?
- 'No entry'.

denbrewers

Atlanta, the thing you call 'drafting' has got a v-very negative connotation to it:confused: in some parts of Blighty, I believe. In a nutshell, it's what you call 'raspberries', to put it mildly, or else 'farting'. In England 'drafting' is known as 'sleapstreaming'.

I've got a question, though. What's the difference between 'drafting' and 'fish-tailing'?

Den Brewers

- How do you feel?
- I use my fingertips.

Joe Gardner

I dont think its about the draft, it's about pace making. The same reason Lance wants Heras in front on the climbs.

Last thrusday I went on a mile run with my house mate. I usualy run a mile in 11 - 12 minutes, i am SLOW! But having him there to set the pace, we finished the mile in under 9 minutes. It's all about pace making

fubar5

denbrewers,

Very cool stuff you post about!! Do you have a web address handy that talks about aerodynamics? I'm searching google right now, but I was wondering if you have a particular site.

I just install a set of Time Impact pedals on my bike, and they feel much more efficient than my old pedals..It could just be the feeling of new equipment.

denbrewers

Log on to www.slowtwich.com
www.analyticcycling.com
www.bicyclesports.com
for starters. The first has been completely revamped recently, and I've completly lost my way there when I logged onto it the first time. It used to be more user-friendly or something, but I knew where to find what I wanted and when I needed it. Dunno why they did it. But John Cobbs articles on aerodynamics and stuff should still be there somewhere.

And by the way, are you still using the old and trusty Google? I thought Alltheweb.com is all the rage now.

Den Brewers

Gravity is our bitter enemy.
Wind is our staunchiest ally.

fubar5

Thanks alot!!!

Yup, I still use Google..Never even heard of alltheweb.com.

Joe Gardner

Google is great for the home / avg user. When I am looking for real technical information, I'll use ATW.

txroadie

When I ride alone I avg 17-19 depending on the wind and terrain. Group rides avg 20 to 22.

SamDaBikinMan

Slipstreaming as the English prefer to call it is what I refer to when I say drafting.

I had no intentions of sounding negative about it in general. Drafting is a great way to get a group going fast and staying fresh in a well organized pace line.

My problem with drafting is when a discussion about what can you average comes up it is inevitable someone will spout out a speed they can maintain in a pace line or group but not solo.

Not really a big deal but not very honest to claim the ability do aride at x speed when in fact you are being pulled along in a group.

Snowblower

I do 18-19 MPH on the flats (what little I have). This is at 6,000+ ft elevation. Always wondered what it would be like at sea level....never have rode my road bike below 4,600 ft.

Snowblower

RiPHRaPH

some rides are flat, some have tail or head winds, some have hills, some are solo...some are in a group .... sometimes you are stopped/slowed at stoplights or for traffic. even with all that, i recently did 18.6 mph for 28 miles including all that stuff. i've given up trying to take out all the slowing, etc.

denbrewers

Caloso RU-U-LEZZZ!

Keep it up, guys.

deliriou5

drafting gives you a DEFINITE benefit in running, even at low speeds. of course, wind resistance is pretty small at slow speeds but think about the frontal area exposed to the coming air when you're running.... basically you can't put your body in a less aero position than when you're running!!

it is especially important in long distance running, and on windy courses. under the influence of wind, every footfall covers a smaller distance than in the absence of it... or you can think of it as... every same-length stride takes more effort than when there's no wind.

also, consider that the poor aerodynamics of running also means a good amount of low pressure "wake" behind you, which has the effect of pulling whatever is in it forward.

kingajo

on flat terain no 20mph, rolling hills 16- 18, BIG hills 10-14. I prefer flat so I can go fast. The hills are what makes you strong. I uased to have a small problem with standing up on the pedals. But since in included some real hill climbing, it now is no problem. I read in an older Bicycling interview with Lance, where he said to run on the pedals when you standup. And now I can do that.

EagleEye

Hmm...Interesting visualization. I'll have to remember this the next time I go climbing.

caloso

You're too kind.

Onewheelup

This is such a tricky question because there are so many variables. Hills, wind, stop lights, other people, etc. If I were you, I'd look at watts which is a far more accurate way to measure yourself against other people.

EagleEye

This thread is not about measuring or comparing myself to others. I simple was curious on what people were doing for a 30 mile ride and thought that maybe others were curious too. I don't care what terrain it is or if it's a group ride because I'm not comparing. We all have a general number or range to throw out when we're ask what's your average, and that's what I was looking for.

BTW, I enjoy reading post like this (from bikedud):

"January - 14-16 mph for 30 - 50 miles
March - 15-17 mph for 40 -50 miles
May - 16-18 mph for 50-60 miles
June - 17-20 mph for anything up to a century depending on terrain and fellow cyclist."

denbrewers

But consider having to run in the dirty air of someone in front Yuk! I once had my riding partner's spit, whilst seating behind, land smack on my face. Well... did I get my own back