reef58

I don't really see how that article is pro Landis. I agree it is not hard hitting journalism, but mostly it quotes what Landis had to say, which may or may not be true.

Richard

reef58

I think the Canadians have a chip on their shoulder.

Richard

marin1

We just have an unbiased opinion that's all

jqnj

The nationalist crap is boring guys. If you have a thing for us uninformed, patriotic dopes from south of the border, can we just keep it to ourselves. BTW, FL and LA sure look guilty to me, the tunnel visioned yank.

reef58

Obviously you don't.

Richard

miket

the last time i checked, innocence was assumed by default until guilt was proven.

there is no compelling evidence against lance, otherwise he would have been found guilty. everything that has been brough against him has been dismissed as rumor. during the period in which he was actively racing, he was the most often tested athelete on the planet, and yet he never tested positive. with regard to landis, his case is full of legal and procedural holes, flaws in ethics, and gross neglegence throughout the process. we will have to wait (thankfully only for a few more weeks...) to see if he is in fact proven guilty. then we can put this nonsense aside... and begin to deal with the nonsense of the other 100+ riders implicated in puerto.

also, floyd is not a mennonite, his parents are.

some of us do, in fact, need a little bit more information, and we appreciate the fact that it is available for us to incorporate into our decision-making process.

Blaireau

Sad, but true....

merlinextraligh

Basso never tested positive. Millar, (IIRC) did not test positive. Ullrich did not test positive for PED's. Andreu didn't test positive. The whole Operation Puerto situation shows that its quite possible to dope and not test positive.


So the I never tested positive bit makes a nice sound bite for TV, but that's about it.

Also there is the little problem of the positive B sample. While not legal evidence of guilt, due to the rules in place at the time. It's a little disingenuous to suggest Armstrong never tested positive, when there is significant evidence that a test for EPO done on Armstong's sample was in fact positive.

Blaireau

I think the US press is pro-Landis; I think Lance has doped, as well as Landis and Hamilton..
And -- guess what -- I was born in the USA.
Kinda puts a dent on your Canadian-hate-americans theory doesn'it?

miket

1. basso = confessed
2. millar = confessed
3. ullrich = dna match
4. andreu = confessed

armstrong??

we can go back and forth all day long, but you can't compare 4 solid guilty parties to one that hasn't been proven, simply because you think he did it. if you're going for guilt by association, then the entire pro tour is guilty. if that is the case, who really cares anymore. until it is proven or he confesses, the whole debate is pointless.

merlinextraligh

The point is that it is very possible, even common, for riders to never test positive, and in fact be doping. Hence the argument that " I never tested positive" is not persuasive. My point wasn't guilt by association. My point was that given the nature of the doping controls, and the proven fact they are often evaded, the "I never tested positive" argument has very little persuasive force.

Little Darwin

Even in the United States, we have the right to expel people from organizations without proof, as long as the expulsion is not based on race, religion, gender or a few other specifically identified traits that are protected by law.

The government's legal system, other than a few specific laws, has nothing to do with the rules of a non-governmental entity.

There may be civil issues if the rules aren't clear, but there is no universally implied rule of innocent until proven guilty that applies to organizations, even if this all happened within the US borders.

SteadyHand

What could be the reason in Lance's case: innuendos made by Lemond?, His success? If they had a valid suspicion, fine. The criteria for investigation should be clear and available to be scrutinized. Maybe it is. If so I would love it if someone could post the link.

miket

i said that he has never tested positive. armstrong said that he has never taken performance enhancing substances under any circumstances. i understand your point, but given that reckless way in which this sport governs itself, persuasive force is much more easily accomplished by an anonymous phone call or fax to a writer at l'equipe than an honest testing process and a fair trial for the athelete. it sucks for the riders, and it sucks for the fans. we should be arguing about who is more likely to win races, not who is more likely to get sidelined for an accusation made in the media.

the problem has gone beyond the riders at this point, and it is only going to continue getting worse. regardless of who doped or didn't, the crew of guys that did it rampantly in the 90's and never got caught are all coaches and managers, or are otherwise still involved with the sport. until sponsors pull out, manufacturers take their gear back, and advertisers refuse to support the races, we're going to continue dealing with this problem for a long time to come.

SteadyHand

I feel the exact opposite. The only consistent objective press is from the cycling magazines. Lloyd himself has stated in interviews that the non-cycling fans only know that he was stripped of his title and that he is a doper. I wont lend an opinion whether this or that one doped. I dont think any of us can make sweeping accusations if we are not involved in the investigation.

Psimet2001 

To take it even a step further the use of the phrase "I never tested positive" instead of simply saying "I have never used performance enhancing drugs" makes one tend to question that individual's intent. It basically creates the ability for that individual to say that they never lied about doping if it ever comes to light that they did in fact dope.

"Well....I never said I didn't dope, rather I said I never tested positive."

It is such a poorly contructed statement that constant use of it almost acts as a clear admission of doping. It also serves to insult the intelligence of cycling fans by implying that they are stupid enough to fall for it.

...can we go back to talking about 1st centuries, and photoshopping people's heads onto various non-cycling related photos?

DocRay

Maybe we're just sick of the moral attitudes and pro-anyone US caught doping.
Landis has lied repeatedly about this affair, and the USADA will respond to this BS, if Landis waived the right to confidence, which HE broke by talking to the press.
So Flandis is getting screwed by the man and his rules, unless he can break those same rules to spread propaganda by his lawyer. Now, he claims a US anti-US conspiracy, conspiring with the French, and anyone else who thinks he's guilty. Yet morons flock to his defense (he raised $500,000 to date).

Maybe non-americans are sick of the righteous attitude of "innocent until proven rich" defenses for US riders, while slamming filthy foreigners who get caught, and making puritan judgements on other countries legal systems.

Bunch of xenophobic eneagled flagophiles who are so brainwashed by their own nationalistic BS they don't want to face any type of reality that indicates that their heros are repeatedly and consistently being exposed as frauds.

Why does the US tolerate this? Just create a US rider-only tour in the US and declare the winner "World champion", like every other US-based sport.

BladeGeek

Why? Just because he kicked everybodys a$$ for 7 years in a row. How about Tiger Woods.....he has been kicking everybodies a$$ for the last 10 years. Just because someone dominates a sport for a time I guess he did it by doping?

patentcad

Incorrect, eh?

Do not generalize based on the rantings of one particular idiot.

ryanspeer

I agree. When dealing with the biased media, it's wise to be extremely careful with your responses. They'll spin your response any which way they can otherwise.

Psimet2001 

AWESOME idea! Oh wait, that's right, no one would show up. In truth Americans love to hate successful people who buy their ways out of guilty situations, but you probably never see that.

Before coming to BF I thought Canadians were intelligent and loving people. Who said BF can't teach you anything.

DMF 

Because he didn't test positive for banned substances. He tested positive for a hormone imbalance. WADA et al. are assuming that was due to banned substances, but there are other possible explanations.

reef58

I agree with what you just said except for the pro Landis media thing. The US media doesn't give a rats behind about Landis. It is just a blurb on the news every now and again.

Richard

reef58

I think you fail to understand I disagree with your entire premise. I am an American. I think they doped. Anytime some disagrees about the doping they are called stupid Americans. Maybe they have not been convinced of guilty based on the lack of evidence. Maybe they give the benefit of the doubt regardless of nationality. The majority of the post I have seen from Americans say that Landis is guilty. Some Americans say he is not.

I have said this in a previous post, but I will say it again. If I had to ability to talk to every citizen I am sure I can find some that think the world is flat, the sun revolves around the Earth, UFO visit them daily, ect. That is a human condition, not an American condition.

Richard

marin1

Are you comparing one of the hardest physical sports in the world with golf? I'm not a doctor but fairly sure EPO would have little effect in the game of golf unless you have trouble walking 5 miles in 5 hours. Take off your star spangled glasses.