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Why Lance Didn't Have to Dope to Win

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Why Lance Didn't Have to Dope to Win

Old 05-11-07, 10:11 AM
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Why Lance Didn't Have to Dope to Win

I think he doped. I am certain Landis did.

The reason I am wasting an extroidinary amount of time on this is I am tired of seeing people getting called stupid, simple Americans, ect just because they think Lance may be innocent.

Some of my points will be facts, some will be speculation based on fact, some on rumor, and some of it will be just speculation.

For most of Lance's wins in the TDF Ullrich was widely considered to be his biggest competition.

My first observation is Lance is a mean tough gritty SOB. He wants to win at all costs. He reminds me of the antigonist in movies that will run you off of the road just to win. I would hate to be between him and the finish line.

Every detail of the tour was scutinized. The course was scouted, and trained upon. Well in advance the hills were picked for attacks. What was Jan doing during this time? Most reports indicate he was either waking up from his hibernation, or searching for donuts, booze, or hot chicks.

USPS & Discovery spent millions of dollars in computer anylasis, wind tunnel testing, helmet design of all things. Remember the show on Lance where the special time trial helmet was delivered? Months and months went into the design of that helmet alone.

Other teams were strong, but no other team was as strong with the only focus being a win for their GC contender. USPS & Discovery was a well oiled machine working for the single goal of a TDF overall win for Lance. Each team memeber sacrificed themselves to achieve that goal. Stage wins were only allowed if it did not upset the overall goal. The discipline that USPS / Discovery showed was second to none.

Jan's teams by contrast were a mess. In fighting and lack of preparation ruled the day. Many on BF have repeatedly complained about T- Mobile's tactics, or lack thereof.

It is commonly spouted that Jan really didn't take training seriously. Many wrote that they thought Jan didn't even like riding. Most agree he lacked the killer instinct, which Lance has much of.

Many complained that Jan showed up to races way out of shape. It shows he lacked the dedication and discipline Lance obviously had. While Lance was training and preparing Jan was eating and eating, and banging hot chicks. I don't blame him BTW.

While Lance is busy scouting rainy time trail courses Jan is eating donuts. Too much work to scout the course.

Lance is reported to have the highest VO2 Max of any riders he was opposing. It is also widely reported that his bodies ability to clear lactic acid is second to none. He is able to achieve a very high heart rate. He devotes his life to training and maximizing his potential.

Jan is in the club hitting on hot chicks.

Is it any wonder Jan could not win? Talent wise Lance & Jan were pretty close, but in all other areas Jan falls way short. In spite of all that Jan came close to winning in 2003.

Can doping compensate for the amount of training, planning, and dedication between Lance and Jan? I will say I don't know. I have not seen a definitive study which concludes the % of benefit an elite rider gets from doping. It could very well be the boost from doping does not close the gap between the two.
Basso is the other elite rider that had the talent to challenge Lance. Unfortunately time trials were his downfall. In 2004 he lost mucho time to Lance in the time trials. He also lost time in 2005. He was working to get better, but it doesn't happen overnight.

Is it fair to call someone an idiot because they weigh all of these factors, and are not convinced Lance doped?

Excuse my spelling and punctuation,
Richard
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Old 05-11-07, 10:13 AM
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there were 187 other people in the field besides Armstrong and Ullrich. Some of them were actually even decent cyclists.
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Old 05-11-07, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
there were 187 other people in the field besides Armstrong and Ullrich. Some of them were actually even decent cyclists.

Your right....except for a 7 year stretch.
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Old 05-11-07, 10:21 AM
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But let's face it, from ~2002 on Ullrich (and later on Basso) were the primary challengers.
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Old 05-11-07, 10:22 AM
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>>Jan is in the club hitting on hot chicks.<<

And taking Ecstacy.

Jan RULES.

And what a superb role model for Ryanf.
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Old 05-11-07, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
there were 187 other people in the field besides Armstrong and Ullrich. Some of them were actually even decent cyclists.
Agreed, but wasn't Ullrich considered the best challenger? How many of them were legitimate GC contenders?

I guess I could go and make the same arguments for each one, but that would take a lot of time.

And my point is is it fair to call someone stupid because they are not yet convinced Lance doped.

Richard
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Old 05-11-07, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
>>Jan is in the club hitting on hot chicks.<<

And taking Ecstacy.

Jan RULES.

And what a superb role model for Ryanf.
Who woulda thunkit! Injected steroids can be a gateway drug!
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Old 05-11-07, 10:42 AM
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I'll take "smoking hot chicks, all the food I can eat, all the money I could want, and 2nd place in The Tour" over "drab social life, family problems, eating to the gram, 1st in The Tour" any day if given the choice.

Neither one of them sound fun.
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Old 05-11-07, 10:56 AM
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Beating cancer and banging a rock star keeps you focused.
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Old 05-11-07, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thebankman
banging a rock star keeps you focused.

He could do better.

Edit: She is FAAAAR from "rock".
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Old 05-11-07, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypress
He could do better.

Edit: She is FAAAAR from "rock".
Admit it,
you would hit it
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Old 05-11-07, 11:12 AM
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Old 05-11-07, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by reef58
Lance is reported to have the highest VO2 Max
Not true, from what I understand. Indurain and others tested at higher VO2 Max than Armstrong, but there was something about him having lower levels of lactic acid at the same level of output than other riders, which was believed to relate to his strong performances.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by reef58
Agreed, but wasn't Ullrich considered the best challenger? How many of them were legitimate GC contenders?

I guess I could go and make the same arguments for each one, but that would take a lot of time.

And my point is is it fair to call someone stupid because they are not yet convinced Lance doped.

Richard
I think your argument holds a lot of water. But so does the foolish Americans argument. What many Americans seem to contend is:

Lance simply destroyed the competition for 7 years in a row and is pure as driven snow. (Oh and is the greatest cyclist ever).

When you add to that the observation that many of his competitors seem to have been doping one has to ask "How could Lance blow away the dopers?" and if he was that good why didn't he win other important races?

Your logic is good, it deals well with what Lance actually accomplished, making a reasonable argument that he may not have doped (or more likely doped less than others). But it does not support the typical foolish claims (that others, not you, have made).
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Old 05-11-07, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by superslomo
Not true, from what I understand. Indurain and others tested at higher VO2 Max than Armstrong, but there was something about him having lower levels of lactic acid at the same level of output than other riders, which was believed to relate to his strong performances.
If you read my post you would see I said the highest VO2 Max of riders he was riding against during his tour wins, not riders of all time.

Richard
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Old 05-11-07, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypress
I'll take "smoking hot chicks, all the food I can eat, all the money I could want, and 2nd place in The Tour" over "drab social life, family problems, eating to the gram, 1st in The Tour" any day if given the choice.

Neither one of them sound fun.
Are you sure? I think one of the options sounds like fun.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:27 AM
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Old 05-11-07, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SpongeDad
Are you sure? I think one of the options sounds like fun.

Jan's scenario is fun... Up to the point of 2nd place.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by vpiuva
Admit it,
you would hit it

Oh hell yes. I'd make sure she was good and pregnant before I was done.

Bragging rights for life.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
I think your argument holds a lot of water. But so does the foolish Americans argument. What many Americans seem to contend is:

Lance simply destroyed the competition for 7 years in a row and is pure as driven snow. (Oh and is the greatest cyclist ever).

When you add to that the observation that many of his competitors seem to have been doping one has to ask "How could Lance blow away the dopers?"
and if he was that good why didn't he win other important races?

Your logic is good, it deals well with what Lance actually accomplished, making a reasonable argument that he may not have doped (or more likely doped less than others). But it does not support the typical foolish claims (that others, not you, have made).
He won plenty of other races, along with being a pro triathlete at age 15. He may or may not have doped, but he was a highly gifted athlete prior to the TdF wins. He was a World Champ, National Triathlon champ and won about 10 stages of the TdF, among others, prior to his cancer.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:49 AM
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I do believe that Lance just plainly put in more effort preparing for the Tour. Any other race that he did was only in preparation for the Tour.

If you look at the interviews and listen very carefully to how Lance words his responses you will discover this: Lance never claimed that he never used any performance enhancers. He claimed that he never used any ILLEGAL performance enhancers. So he probably used things earlier that were made illegal later. Which is playing by the rules. So, he didn't dope. Taking a drug when it is still legal is not considered doping. Taking the same drug after it is illegal IS doping. I don't think Lance doped. But I do think he used every single thing possible without crossing the line.

People talk about him not winning other major races during his TdF reign. The fact is he did not really try to. Any race that he did was a preparation step for the Tour. He took the Tour to a whole different level, a level where your entire year had to have total focus on a single event. Everything was about peaking during the Tour. He made himself a TdF specialist.

On a separate note, it was really sad to see the Discovery team that used to be such a well-oiled machine look like everybody else last year. No plan, no tactics, and a shambles on the road. I guess Lance was also REALLY running the team.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cslone
He won plenty of other races, along with being a pro triathlete at age 15. He may or may not have doped, but he was a highly gifted athlete prior to the TdF wins. He was a World Champ, National Triathlon champ and won about 10 stages of the TdF, among others, prior to his cancer.
Name 3 stages in the TDF that Lance won pre cancer. I'm to lazy to look them up now so I'm going conservative and saying he had at most 2.

As to true top of the top level races (Grand Tours, 5 Monuments and Worlds) he has only one besides the 7 TDF wins. One worlds and that one has some interesting details that seem to get forgotten.

Compare that to any of the 5 or even 3 time winners of the TDF.
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Old 05-11-07, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Avalanche325
I do believe that Lance just plainly put in more effort preparing for the Tour. Any other race that he did was only in preparation for the Tour.

If you look at the interviews and listen very carefully to how Lance words his responses you will discover this: Lance never claimed that he never used any performance enhancers. He claimed that he never used any ILLEGAL performance enhancers. So he probably used things earlier that were made illegal later. Which is playing by the rules.
Actually technically is isn't. There are some general rules regarding performance inhancing drugs that would still have been broken. But busts under that section are much more rare.
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Old 05-11-07, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
Name 3 stages in the TDF that Lance won pre cancer. I'm to lazy to look them up now so I'm going conservative and saying he had at most 2.
1993 TDF:
Stage 8 : Chalons-sur-Marne - Verdun

1995 TDF:



Stage 18 Montpon - Liomges

Stage 16 was nuetralized the day after Fabio Caertelli's death and was ridden ceremonially with Motorola crossing the line first. And there are web sites listing that as an Armstrong win, but the TDF records reflect no winner for that stage.

So its 2 stages. Three if you really want to stretch it.

Last edited by merlinextraligh; 05-11-07 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 05-11-07, 12:06 PM
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from CN:

Floyd Landis has said that the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) offered him a deal to reduce his potential suspension on drug charges if he would provide incriminating evidence against Lance Armstrong "or anyone more important than me," according to ESPN.com.
Speaking at a press conference Thursday in Los Angeles, Landis said that Travis Tygart, USADA's general counsel, made the offer to his lawyer, Howard Jacobs, shortly after Landis' positive test was confirmed. Landis claimed that the agency was willing "to do harm to my reputation in order to get to Lance."
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