Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Chris Boardman

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Old 05-28-07, 03:39 PM
  #26  
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I read the article and he presents a strong case....on the surface of it. There is a graph that shows an inverse relationship between % of trips made by bicycle versus cyclist deaths per billion km cycled. The article entirely ignores the prevalence of bike paths. My guess is the countries with the highest % of trips made by bicycle (Holland then Denmark w/US lowest) ALSO have the highest % of roads with bike lane/paths; i.e. many of those cyclists aren't actually riding in traffic.

BTW, a helmet didn't save Casartelli.

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Old 05-28-07, 03:58 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
Yes, they do, but late. That's the point. Check B&N: they still have the Basso issue.
Well I saw the issue with Boardman discussing the helmet thing last Friday...
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Old 05-28-07, 05:30 PM
  #28  
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Someone I know took a minor spill commuting on a bike path without a helmet last year and while they can now remember their own name (and others) and can work again they are still not allowed to drive an automobile. It was quite traumatic for the person's family, friends and coworkers. As far as I know the person owned a helmet but it was a nice day and they forgot it or didn't feel like wearing it. I was hit by a car on a training ride some years back and my impact with the pavement totally split the helmet I was wearing, I got away with some broken ribs, a sore back and a mild concussion. I subscribe to Procycling and I've always thought that Boardman didn't wear one just because he doesn't like the way he looks wearing a helmet in the photos. All anecdotal but my position on it is that it is entirely a darwinian process whether someone chooses to wear a helmet.
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Old 05-28-07, 06:13 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
I read the article and he presents a strong case....on the surface of it. ....
I guess you read it at "the library" (aka off the stand)?

Its looking like that's how I'll do it
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Old 05-28-07, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
I guess you read it at "the library" (aka off the stand)?

Its looking like that's how I'll do it
Nope. I'm a subscriber. I've had it for a week or two.
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Old 05-28-07, 06:56 PM
  #31  
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I think the chose to wear or not to wear a helmet is entirely up to the rider. However I wish my friends who don't wear helmets did.

I'm on my third helmet so far this year...
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Old 05-28-07, 11:24 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
.Some riders are great to watch racing, but aren't very bright. Boardman was famous for crossing finish lines in gestures of victory not even realizing he got beat. His bike reviews are quite mundane.
I like the reviews by Boardman and Wust. I'm sucked into thinking they have a heap of cred when reviewing a bike (), and they're not scared to say less than flattering things. When magazine employees do reviews, they seem to be too affraid of upsetting any potential advertisers. There's one local mag here that has virtually never done a bad review, EVER!!
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Old 05-28-07, 11:27 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
looks like Boardman might have lost some weight. I have the issue in which he reviews a Scapin, and at first I didn't recognize him coz he was kinda fat! A non-cycling firend of mine asked "why is this fat guy reviewing this bike?"
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Old 05-29-07, 01:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
Nope. I'm a subscriber. I've had it for a week or two.
I guess the question is if he has changed his position on helmets.

Is there anything in the article that says he has, or has he always been pro-choice?
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Old 05-29-07, 02:53 PM
  #35  
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Personal choice?

No.

If you take your sport seriously you wear the proper safety equipment. That means you sit down, shut up and wear a helmet. Can you imagine the NFL is players started deciding not to wear a helmet? How about NASCAR? No batting helmet or cup in baseball?
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Old 05-29-07, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ratebeer
Personal choice?

No.

If you take your sport seriously you wear the proper safety equipment. That means you sit down, shut up and wear a helmet. Can you imagine the NFL is players started deciding not to wear a helmet? How about NASCAR? No batting helmet or cup in baseball?
a simplistic, and incorrect comparison.
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Old 05-29-07, 03:02 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by botto
a simplistic, and incorrect comparison.
A simplistic and incorrect reply.
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Old 05-29-07, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ratebeer
A simplistic and incorrect reply.
incorrect.
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Old 05-29-07, 03:17 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
Watch out with that one! In another threas some kind soul copied an article on cycling, and it promptly got deleted by the IP police.... Not the mention the cries of outrage it provoked by those who actually fork out dough for the online edition of the WSJ.

Erm... It wasnt me.



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Old 05-29-07, 03:18 PM
  #40  
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Old 05-29-07, 04:25 PM
  #41  
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Hey, thanks! (I'll never mention that I saw it online!)
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Old 05-30-07, 08:12 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
I read the article and he presents a strong case....on the surface of it. There is a graph that shows an inverse relationship between % of trips made by bicycle versus cyclist deaths per billion km cycled. The article entirely ignores the prevalence of bike paths. My guess is the countries with the highest % of trips made by bicycle (Holland then Denmark w/US lowest) ALSO have the highest % of roads with bike lane/paths; i.e. many of those cyclists aren't actually riding in traffic.

BTW, a helmet didn't save Casartelli.
but on that graph is a comparrison between Germany and Sweden (and Finland for that matter) that shows 2 pretty similar cycling atmospheres (correct me if I'm wrong about this), a large difference in usage of helmets, but not much difference in fatality rates.

Again correct me if I'm wrong here but, a similar situation can be found in my town, Vancouver (MHL) and Montreal (that has no law) where fatality rates per km are very close but helmet use in Vancouver is triple what it is in Montreal

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Old 05-30-07, 09:17 AM
  #43  
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2 points:

1. Not all crashes will kill, but how many of the fatalities were helmet dependent? In other words, if I start tossing people off the top of the Empire State, and some have helmets, some don't, I could make a pretty strong argument helmets are useless. So, for those crashes that were survivable in the first place, what is the incidence of serious head trauma? The country comparison is a total red herring, BTW. There are no apples to apples in that bunch. Besides, aren't they all on the reefer in Holland?

2. The argument that using safety equipment makes people more likely to be dangerous, feeling invulnerable with a few ounces of styrofoam strapped to their head, is the biggest BS specious pile of garbage I have ever had the disgust of seeing put forward. When was the last time you saw a car/truck bearing down on you and thought anything but "OMG!!"? I am quite certain nobody ever thinks "at least I have my helm of invincibility on!". Complaceney in general is why people become stupider and take risks. And complacency will occur with or without a helmet.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:32 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by eandmwilson
2. The argument that using safety equipment makes people more likely to be dangerous, feeling invulnerable with a few ounces of styrofoam strapped to their head, is the biggest BS specious pile of garbage I have ever had the disgust of seeing put forward. When was the last time you saw a car/truck bearing down on you and thought anything but "OMG!!"? I am quite certain nobody ever thinks "at least I have my helm of invincibility on!". Complaceney in general is why people become stupider and take risks. And complacency will occur with or without a helmet.
I don't know about that...over the weekend I entered a skid competition. At first I couldn't find my helmet and almost didn't compete. Then I found it and promptly crashed HARD during my first skid. I landed on my head so my helmet probably prevented more serious injuries (just got some road rash) but if I wasn't wearing one I wouldn't have competed in the first place.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:39 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
The problem with this attitude is that we all end up paying for someone else's decision. A person disabled from a head injury will cost hundreds of thousands to millions to treat over the rest of their lives, and this burden usually ends up in the hands of taxpayers.
Poor logic, couldn't the same thing be said by car drivers about riding a bike? Don't we all end up paying when some biker gets crushed by a car? Or a motorcycle? Or a small car? Don't we all pay when a hippie in his hybrid gets crushed by a semi?
This could be said of any decision.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by eandmwilson

2. The argument that using safety equipment makes people more likely to be dangerous, feeling invulnerable with a few ounces of styrofoam strapped to their head, is the biggest BS specious pile of garbage I have ever had the disgust of seeing put forward. When was the last time you saw a car/truck bearing down on you and thought anything but "OMG!!"? I am quite certain nobody ever thinks "at least I have my helm of invincibility on!". Complaceney in general is why people become stupider and take risks. And complacency will occur with or without a helmet.
Have you never seen a person with a 4wd go out in the first big snow of the year, thinking they are invincible? and then promptly crash? Happens every year here around December 15th.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:48 AM
  #47  
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I think Boardman was right in saying the statistics showed that countries like the U.S. and GB which have a good % of riders wearing helmets still have more cycling deaths than Holland where almost no one wears a helmet. I think his interpretation of the data, however, was irresponsible. There were way too many variables not accounted for, making the statistics useless. For example, the "deaths" never tell us if it was death by head injury or by some other injury. It also doesn't take into account WHERE the people are riding their bikes. For example, in the U.S. are more people in the road and in holland on bike trails? (or vice versa) etc.
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Old 05-30-07, 09:56 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by ratebeer
Personal choice?

No.

If you take your sport seriously you wear the proper safety equipment. That means you sit down, shut up and wear a helmet. Can you imagine the NFL is players started deciding not to wear a helmet? How about NASCAR? No batting helmet or cup in baseball?
So all of the pro riders in the last 100 years didn't take the sport seriously?

We might as well make people wear helmets around the house, especially if you have stairs. What about around the pool? Skateboarders, roller bladers, and joggers? How about surfers and if it's good enough for NASCAR, why not you in your car? Oh, and don't forget about the bull and bronc riders.

Personal choice?

Yes.
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Old 05-30-07, 10:18 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by eandmwilson
2 points:

1. Not all crashes will kill, but how many of the fatalities were helmet dependent? In other words, if I start tossing people off the top of the Empire State, and some have helmets, some don't, I could make a pretty strong argument helmets are useless. So, for those crashes that were survivable in the first place, what is the incidence of serious head trauma? The country comparison is a total red herring, BTW. There are no apples to apples in that bunch. Besides, aren't they all on the reefer in Holland?
Isn't it in the article that helmets are not designed to protect in impact with cars and aren't almost all cycling deaths the result of impacts with cars? Not every impact with a car is going to result in death, this happens on a regular basis, and a large amount of these happens to helmetless cyclists.

I don't doubt that helmets are of some value, and I am very much pro-choice on the issue, but if what Chris says is true and if we can agree that death is the best way compare helmeted and non-helmeted riders, I would never look down on someone if he/she were willing to have a little road rash on his/her scalp.

Anyway, I certainly have a different impression of Chris' take on the issue than what I originally read when he was quoted as saying,

"I have become more convinced of the need of Headway within the community, and particularly the importance of its work in preventing the number and severity of head injuries."

What he says is still true, but it is in context now. He compares the risks as that of walking, that exercise trumps the risk and he not only rides without a helmet at times, he doesn't mind if his daughter goes lidless
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Old 05-30-07, 11:35 AM
  #50  
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Damn.

Chris stole my helmets are religion quote, went back several years into the past (or however long ago that article was) and printed it. Bastard.
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